Meeting with Kat, Thursday 24 September 2026 (Facebook live)

Hi everyone, would anyone... Oopsie! Would anyone like to start us off today? Any hands up? Okay, maybe later then. I was cleaning Bob's drawers again and I found another tons of beautiful treasure, mostly undecipherable. His handwriting is pretty bad. I mean, it's sweet and dear, but it's very, very difficult to read. I wanted to give you something that we haven't seen before or had before, but there is one of my girlfriend's beliefs she can rise to the challenge and help me decipher some of the stuff. I also found one of Bob's very, very favourite little reminders that he actually requested me and someone else also to print out a couple of pages from one of the books of one of the guys that Nisargadatta actually recommended him to see.

So this is, I'm going to just read you an entry because I don't even remember what it was, but I remember Bob was quite excited about the way it was explained. So it comes from the book Awareness by Jiddu Krishnamurti. Bob had initially a little bit of a confusing sort of relationship with Krishnamurti's teachings because when he first stumbled across him as a seeker, he found him to be really, really worthy, really intellectual. The simplicity wasn't shining out of him. Then he met Nisargadatta and then he heard what Nisargadatta had to say. And suddenly Krishnamurti became an open book, became really obvious, easy, simple. There was nothing intellectual or worthy about him anymore.

And it was also in, I think, 76 when Nisargadatta actually sent Bob to go and listen to him, just to prove it to himself. And so this is a fragment. He says the question was being asked by a seeker, what do you mean by awareness? So the seeker says, you seem to be giving it an extra meaning, deeper meaning to that word. Yes, it seems to me as we are aware of what's going on all the time. When I'm angry, I know it. When I'm sad, I know it. And when I'm happy, I know it. So this is what Krishnamurti answered. I wonder if we really are aware of anger, sadness, happiness.

Or are we aware of those things only when they are all over? Let us begin as though we know nothing about it at all and start from scratch. Let us not make any assertions dogmatic or subtle, but let us explore this question, which if one really went into it very deeply would reveal an extraordinary state that the mind had probably never touched. A dimension not touched by superficial awareness. Let us start from the superficial and work through as I'm entering new people. So, we see with our eyes. We perceive with our senses the things about us, the colour of the flower, the hummingbird over the flower, the light of this Californian sun, the thousand sounds of different qualities, and subtleties, the depth and the height, the shadow of the tree and the tree itself.

So I'm just entering more people and the tree itself, we feel in the same way our own bodies. Which are the instruments of those different kinds of superficial sensory perceptions. If these perceptions remind at the superficial level, the weakness that acts in the way of the three senses. would be no confusion at all. That flower, that pansy, that rose are there and that's all there is to it. There is no preference, no comparison, no like and dislike. Only the thing before us without any psychological involvement. It is all superficial sensory perception or awareness. Is it quite clear? It can be expanded to the stars, to the depth of the seas and to the ultimate frontiers of scientific observations using all the instruments of modern technology.

So the seeker says, yes, I think I understand that. Krishnamurti answers, so you see that the rose and all the universe and the people in it, your own wife if you have one, the stars, the seas, the mountains, the microbes, the atoms, the neutrons, this room, the door really are there. Now the next step. What you think about those things or what you feel about them is your psychological response to them and this we call thought or emotion. So the The superficial awareness is a very simple matter. The door is there, but the description of the door is not the door. And when you get emotionally involved in the description, you don't see the door.

The description might be a word or a scientific treatise or a strong emotional response. None of this is the door itself. This is very important to understand right from the beginning. If we don't understand this, we shall get more and more confused. The description is never the described. Though we are describing something even now, and we have to, the things we are describing is not our description of it. So please bear in mind right through our talk. Never confuse the word. Never confuse the word. Never confuse the word with the thing it describes. The word is never the real. And we are easily carried away when we come to the next stage of awareness, where it becomes personal and we get emotional through the word.

I already see, I haven't read it in, I think Bob has shown me that probably 11 years ago, right in the beginning and asked me to read it. I see where the inspiration, you know, for some of his brilliant works. It's one-liners, you know, no preference, no comparison, no partiality. Description never described. Map is not the territory. But he was particularly fond on that two pages because it really nails down to the nitty gritty detail of perception. How you know the, he called it a superficial. And now let's see what he said. He says more. So there is a superficial awareness of the tree, the bird, the door, and there is a response to that, which is thought feeling emotion.

Now we become aware of this response. We might call it a second depth of awareness. There is the awareness of the rose and the awareness of the response to the rose. Often we are unaware of this response to the roles. In reality. It. Is the same awareness, which sees the rose and which sees the response. It is one movement and it is wrong to speak of the outer and inner awareness. When there is visual awareness of the tree without any psychological involvement, there is no division in relationship. He's covering up even that, but when there is psychological response to a tree, this response is conditioned.

Response. It is the response of the past memory, past experiences. And this response is a division in relationship. This response is the birth of what we shall call the me in relationship and the non me. That's one more person coming. This is how you create the individual and the community. The world. Not as it is. But in its various relationships to the me of memory. This division is the life and the flourishing of everything we call our psychological being. And from this arises all contradiction and division. You are very clear that you perceive it. Are you? This is pretty, pretty loaded, but it's pretty clear also.

And pretty. Obviously, too. You know, when the things start getting a little bit more personal, you know, things as they are things that you are, for example, you know, when I watch football, it absolutely means nothing. The colors of the footballers mean nothing. T-shirts mean nothing. But when Dean watches football, this is his team and this is not his team. So this is the this is the difference when it gets personal. When. This is. This emotional like dislike sort of relationship. I see the rose cannot pass by any beautiful rows. They really put me on my knees and I have to sniff every single one.

Dean doesn't even like roses. He's just laughing under his mustache at looking at me falling behind. So this is the element, and it is not to say that someone is better or worse by having particular preferences. preference or like or dislike. There's no one there having likes or dislikes. My cats are also having preference to be put and to be kicked. But noticing, distinguishing the difference, seeing where the personal element, when the personal world, where the vision comes, that I see the rose and didn't see the rose, I see the footballers and didn't see the footballers. And there are two different worlds because of my past experiences, which is a little bit of a childhood trauma with my father calling all his friends and screaming and yelling while I was reading a decadent poetry as a teenager and didn't really want to hear swearing old men.

And for him, it was the comforting, relaxing state of watching his own father completely on the same page, being one, men joining and again, the past experiences and conditioning, my conditioning versus his conditioning. My conditioning towards roses is also different. I never really investigate the details of his dislike towards those flowers, incomprehensible rather. I asked when time comes, so maybe not. Who knows anyway? Back to the awareness when there is the awareness of the tree. There is no evaluation. But when there is a response to the tree, when the tree is judged with like and dislike then a division takes place in this awareness as the me and the non-me the me who is different from the thing observed this me is the response in relationship or past memory or past experiences now then can be an awareness an observation of a tree without any judgment and can there be an observation of the response the reactions without any judgment now we're talking if i defend the rose and fight for the rose there is a strong sense of defensiveness arising and it takes like suck up all of the attention and there is not even much of the registering in it there's a personal involvement i am right and someone who doesn't like roses is wrong it's a different quality than observing i have preference and you have no preference like the cat observing the cat having a preference for a raw turkey chest over the uh pork liver there is no righteousness about it there is no um me involved as as such is pure awareness of the response impersonal in a way even judgment or preference personal preference is impersonal when it's noticed or registered from that space like awareness when there when there is when the train of thought has not been embarked but is registered so in this way we eradicate the principle of division the principle of me and non-me both in looking at the tree and in looking at ourselves so now i think this is the this is the seeker answering i'm trying to follow you let's see if i have got it right there is an awareness of the tree that i understand there is a psychological response to the tree that i understand understand there is a psychological response to the tree that i understand also there is a psychological response is made up of past memories and past experiences it is like and dislike it is the division into the tree and the me yes i think i understand all that kronia krishnamurti says is this as clear as the tree itself or is it simply the clarity of description remember as we have already said the described is not the description what have you got the thing or its description another subtlety that exists only in language the person says i think it is the thing krishnamurti says therefore there is no me who is the description in the seeing of this fact in the seeing of any fact there is no me there is either the me or the seeing that can't be both me is non-seeing the me cannot see cannot be aware me is blind is deaf it doesn't even have the eyes it just is just a thought you so now is there is there an i outside of relationships that's a good question to ponder so krishnamurti says we have seen how heavily conditioned our responses are when you ask if there is a me outside of relationship it becomes a peculiar speculative question as long as as there is no freedom from this conditioned responses but rather can the mind in which is included all our feelings be free of this conditioning which is the past the past is the me there is no me in the present as long as the mind is operating in the past there is the me and the mind is the past the mind is this me you can't say there is the mind and there is the past whether there is a past of a few days ago or few thousand years ago so we are asking can the mind free itself from yesterday now there are several things involved aren't they first of all there is a superficial awareness the then there is awareness of the conditioned response then there is a realization that the mind is past the mind is this conditioned response then there is a question whether this mind can free itself of the past and all this is one unitary action of awareness because in this there is no conclusions when we say the mind is the past the realization is not a verbal con conclusion but actual perception of the past of a fact when we ask whether the mind can be free of the past is the question being asked by the sensor the me who is that very past it's not far to go unless anyone wants to disturb me and we can just stop here we can go elsewhere and you're welcome to direct the whole the whole i i just found it in the drawer today so i was going to imagine something while just produce a short video but it's gonna be very interesting video is unconditioned is just seeing so there is just a one one last page where there is no more so krishnamurti says uh answering to question can the mind be free of the past just after he explained that mind is the past well who is putting that question is it the entity who is the result of a great many conflicts memories and experiences me which is the past is it he who is asking or does the question arise of itself out of perception of the fact if it is the observer who is putting the question then he is trying to escape from the fact himself because he says i have lived so long in pain in trouble in sorrow i should like to go away from the fact that i have lived so long in pain in trouble in sorrow i should like to go beyond this constant struggle if he asks the question from the motive his answer will be taking refuge in some escape one either turns away from a fact or one faces it and the word and the symbol are turning away from it in fact just to ask this question at all is already an act of act of escape is it not let us be aware whether this question is or is not an act of escape if it is it is noise if there is no observer then there is silence a complete negation of the whole past you can see how subtly there is a sense of doership i want to manipulate the reality how do i do it you know that endless thousand ways in which that question shows up how do i do it how do i get there how do i stop uh so that's how he is like picking apart the the intention or the motive which basically presumes that there is a separate self which has the the power over so now back to krishnamurti we are talking over uh together this question of awareness so the other option he was showing is it really coming from the agenda or is it just spontaneously arising well if it is spontaneously arising what for what the heck who gives a shit so the question doesn't even need the answer is recognized as just a fluff a melody or music i think there was a comment here let me see oh yes we have um ah aunt says i respect jay krishnamurti messiah label was trust on him and he rejected it he was given a good education and he rejected second-hand knowledge he was trying to get the world to stop looking to the appearance and trying to find order one must find it within you can find order in the world when you look outward and see right and wrong order is the totality of within beautiful happening and conceptualization simultaneous says hank yeah yeah so this is what moved bob i normally try not to bring up a lot of teachers and teachings because you know imagine how how it would look like if everyone started reading from their favorite book krishnamurti is not my favorite book i just didn't didn't remember what was bob recommended and what was his favorite book and i just didn't remember what was his favorite book and i just didn't remember what was his favorite book commanding to people for investigations so i wanted to just check it out and you can see how you know through the language of pointing you know a lot of the way uh i'm pointing or tanya is pointing is is influenced by bob's language and bob's language is influenced by uh dokchan language and even krishnamurtis and nisargadatta's language it is just the dance of you know available means this is how the instrument is tuned so this is how the music is showing up and this was part of the tuning forks of the instrument called bob which further away passed on the tuning the resonance and and it keeps going so it's not far to go but we can actually just just stop here he says only in the highlight there is a tree and the conditioned response to the tree which is the me in relationship the me who is the very center of a conflict now is this me who is asking a question the me as we have said is the very structure of the past if the question is not asked by the me then there is no structure of the past when the structure is asking the question it is operating in relationship to the fact of itself it is frightened of itself and it acts to escape from itself when this structure does not ask the question it is not acting in relationship to itself to keep recapitulate there is the tree there is the word there is the response to the tree which is the sensor or the me which comes from the past and then there is the question can i escape from all this turmoil and agony if the me is asking this question it is perpetuating itself can you see how the answer cannot be found in the mind the me wanting to get out the me wanting something else than what is right here right now resisting the reality wanting to know grasping is really perpetuating itself now being aware of that it doesn't ask the question it is perpetuating itself being aware and seeing all the implication of it the question cannot be asked it does not ask the question at all because it sees the trap now do you see that all this awareness is superficial it is the same as the awareness which sees the tree is there any other kind of awareness says the seeker and krishna multi says again let's be careful let's be very clear that we are not asking these questions from this side of the river or is it from the other bank if you are on the other bank you will not ask this question if you are on that bank your action will be from the bank so there is an awareness of this bank with all its structure its nature and its traps and to try to escape from the trap is to fall into another trap the whole trying the whole trap of trying what is wrong with right now and what deadly monotony there is in all that awareness has shown us the nature of the trap and therefore there is the negation of all traps so the mind is now empty it is empty of the me and of the trap the mind has a different quality a different dimension of awareness this awareness is not aware that it is aware so now the seeker is saying my god this is too difficult you are saying things that seem true that sounds true but i'm not there yet can you put it differently can you put me out of my trap again agendas agenda krishnamurti nobody can push you out of your trap no guru no drug no mantra nobody including myself nobody especially myself all you have to do is to be aware from the beginning to an end not become inattentive in the middle of it this new quality of attention of awareness is attention and in this attention there is no frontier made by the me this attention is the highest form of virtue therefore it is love it is supreme intelligence and there cannot be attention if you are not sensitive to the structure and the nature of this man-made traps how poetic that's that bob made me print like 20 copies of a study on growinguans' Ankawa.

I went there and came by this self-taught cosmic study very good to me. my dad is once studying philosophy there would have been an wages on my� job I understood that my passion was contentious but my father has been completely 100 as i stronger self-discipline with an occult and have moments where i have had a lot of trial and 됩니다 and there are two copies left so the copies are when they went home with the seekers to their homes to study and ponder and really again beautifully worthy and eloquent krishnamurti and bob summing it up to a basic very very simple pointer inspiration just relax step back and notice the noticing notice that even judging noticing the tree labeling the tree liking or disliking the tree experiencing feeling or resistance towards the tree all of it is being registered all of it is known is noticed so be that cognizing everything emptiness, that space that is noticing, not the me that has agenda, that has opinion.

And if within that spaciousness, that openness, the me with agenda arises, yay! He says attention, unconditional acceptance is love. Who cares? Let it be there. Judgment arises. Anger arises. Wow. Sense of personal involvement arises. Wow. Space has nothing. It has no comparison, no partiality. What was the third word? No preference to whatever arises. And only that you can call freedom. Freedom for who though? There's no one there to be free. Space is already free. So rather than attaining freedom for me. Which is. Completely. It's not on the menu. It can't happen. Realizing that spaciousness already free. There is no one who needs to look anything, no one who needs to get anything.

No one who needs to get anywhere, become anything, understand anything, grasp anything, but noticing the way the mind functions. The way. The. of personal involvement like bob would you know give the examples of um little a little boy little johnny growing up and feeling not quite as big and strong and independent needing to get attention from the adults needing to feel strong then bragging in front of other little boys that my daddy is bigger than yours and then forming into little packs and then tribes and then nations and then nations going to war with nation because of that same insecurity and vulnerability and sense of smallness we as the nation are not strong enough therefore we need the arms we need that all in the sense of deficiency all based in the identity of not being enough of the me whilst those movements they still exist in life judgments are required minds are required there's nothing wrong with anything that arises including forming communities and tribes including the war nothing wrong unless the thinking comes and says so nothing right or wrong but thinking makes it so so it really is child's play says aunt and what a play it is what an incredible dream i'm just gonna check uh if we have anyone who hasn't been with us before here and just for the heck of saying welcome in case um i think we all know each other so as we do all know each other would anyone like to start the conversation jump in drop couple of pointers or it's cornelius you on you uh that brought up lots of stuff um i'm thinking about neutrality uh and the expression that um if if you think you're neutral you're actually on the side of the oppressor and that there was a story about um mahatma gandhi and mahatma gandhi went to some guru guru out in the middle of India.

And the guru refused to teach him anything. And after Mahatma Gandhi had left, one of the guru's off-siders said, Why'd you do that? Why'd you send him away? He said, Because he's going to go on to become a great Indian hero in the battle against the British or whatever. I don't know where I'm going with this. It's just coming now. So in the world at the moment, the story seems to be that we're going to have a repetition of Germany in the early 30s, except it's going to be kind of global. Now there's a great soft space behind tiny nervous blue-eyed Cornelius. And this great soft space says, Don't worry about it.

It may never happen. What's wrong with right now if you don't think about it? But through a force of habit, the small nervous blue-eyed Cornelius goes, Yeah, but what if the whole place becomes fascism and fascism is really nasty and it affects everyone, even on a local level. And people get paranoid and they get scared and they dob in their neighbors. And it turns out they dobbed in the neighbors because they wanted to get the neighbor's farm, blah, blah, blah, the whole story. So this, I can see that Cornelius might have this fear of sort of authoritarian takeovers, because he grew up with an authoritarian father in the context of what Krishnamurti just said.

So it's like, well, like if the government changes, it's like, yeah, well, whatever. I live way out in the bush, it's probably not going to affect me at all. Besides that, it's this childhood. And this oppression by a loving but sort of quite brutal dad left a scar. And it's the scar that Cornelius responds to, rather than any sort of imaginary, perhaps tomorrow. In place of Krishnamurti's tree, I would put a dog. pheníllum log Well, because I had a rough time with dogs when I was a little kid, I got chased by them, I got bitten by one. And so I sort of grew up with a, like, fear of dogs.

I don't have it anymore, it's quite neutral and I stick my hand out. And the dog comes and licks it and I get along quite well with dogs. Because this, this early primal fear of this barking thing with sharp teeth, it's kind of bad. kind of gone. So, for years, I put that on the poor dog. So, it was my psychological, the relationship between other dogs, former dogs, imaginary dogs, and what I thought of as me and this tower of meat that I am, that affected the relationship with dogs generally and fascists. So, that's what came up here. And also, I've tried to read Krishnamurti in the past and found him very wordy and very verbose.

And it's like trying to read Ramana Maharshi. And in the early part of the 20th century, that Indians who write in English often write in like this sort of thick, you know, 19th century English, which is kind of, by the time you get to the end of the sentence, you have to go back and deconstruct the sentence to figure out what he was on about. So, yes, Bob helped illumine all that from within it somehow. That's it. Yeah. And that's a great example of that, you know, personal element of the conditioning. You know, like, it's like, I love bringing up again, bringing up how this conditioning through the past, the programming works, you know, it doesn't, it doesn't prove the existence or reality of the ego because that dog which traumatize you is probably traumatize itself.

And I've seen, I think I've told that story. Some time ago, I've seen a cat that my mother in law had actually me and my ex husband bought her. Beautiful beige Persian, Persian cat was sweetest thing. And she taught the cat to go out on the leash like a dog. She would get the cat in the car, take it by the river, should go sunbathing and a cat would be just walking around with the lovely, lovely cat. And then her son, her other son came back from England and he had nothing, never really ever knew the cats. And he was treating the cat. He said, Well, the cat is not a cat.

Well, the cat behaves like a dog. It needs training like a dog. So it needs to know who is the owner. So he was actually holding the cat so hard. The cat was literally fighting for its life thinking that it's going to be squashed to death. And for three weeks or four weeks vacation, the boy was training a dog to obey him. But cats don't work that way. Cats don't function as a different creature. They are not tribal animals. They are not animals. Puck animals, they don't need the hierarchy. They don't understand the hierarchy. So for the cat, it was incredible trauma. And those three or four weeks of training the cat to be a dog and obey a person cause a complete personality change of a cat to the point that my mother in law couldn't have it anymore.

The cat wouldn't let anyone touch it. The kid, the boy wasn't the boy. We was he was well adult young adult, he would come with the towel or or blanket to grab the cat and to break it. And he had the best of intentions. He says the cat behaves like a dog should be broken as a dog should be reacting, responding to the name obeying bringing things you know, like disturb human. I mean, I love the kid, but it's not really I didn't know that was happening. I only discovered that when the cat was born. After I think six years of being a beautiful companion for the mother in law, and six years and three weeks of traumatizing, the cat was impossible to actually stay at this under the same roof.

She couldn't touch the cat anymore. He would scream and scratch. He she couldn't pat him. She couldn't attend this was Persian cat. She couldn't attend to his hair. He was brushing. So in no time, the cat become tangled so badly that the hair started getting off with the skin and with the blood with the wounds. She could never have him anymore. So the cat ended up after six years back to me and my ex husbands place. And the trauma therapy took over a year or maybe two years where the cat needed to be shaved under. under the full anesthetic and had to be left alone, not approached until the cat was ready to rewrite the trauma.

Like you were saying, Cornelius, you know, the childhood trauma you had with the dog, this was conditioned response of the survival mechanism in the mind to fear the dogs, to avoid the dogs. And over time, those mechanisms were no longer necessary. So that database of responses has been updated. And now in it, when the dog comes up, it licks your hand and there is no fear response. There is no smell that invites the dog to bark anymore, because they can smell the fear. So with that cat, it needed absolute peace. Those three or four weeks of torture rewired the whole response mechanism. The whole survival mechanism to the point that the cat couldn't take any chance anymore.

So it took roughly over a year and a half, two years before that cat came to my lap and let me pat it and pair. That's how long the database needed to collect the data that it is safe now, that this dysregulated response of fighting. For life is no longer valid is no longer necessary. So when we look at traumatized people and we think, you know, like, well, someone was abused in childhood now developed the paranoid schizophrenia and is paranoid that everyone who is kind to them is gonna is gonna stop their back. And we think, okay, how long is it gonna take to rewrite that responses?

Well may take forever because with humans. We reinforce them. We can't stop the trauma by telling and retelling the story. So three years without two years in the case of a cat or a dog or a year without any reinforcement and the database rewrites itself. But human at this point, my need heart reset or a decade of the therapy or even the what do they do the electroshock? So whatever it is. Life regulates it. But even if the rewrite of a trauma or or this type of a response never stops. The primary aim of the life essence experiencing itself through the body, human body or cat body or a dog body or a bad body, traumatized body or happy body, body with the awareness awakening to the dream of body with it.

With. The strong conviction that I'm separate person. It doesn't matter. Primary. Aim or goal of existence. If we could call it this way is already. Already achieved. The I am the sense of existence. The knowing of existence. The sat chit Ananda, the acknowledgement of the reality. I am. Therefore, there is a sense of separation or sense of liberation or trauma or something else. There is. There is. The sense of existence, the existence is there. It is like that metaphor. offered a queen. I think I chose at metaphor also a couple of times the metaphor of a glass glass wall or glass door. Whether you ride on the glass door here is a glass door.

Are you right? On a glass door? There is no glass door here. The fact of the writing is already. confirming the presence of a wall or glass door or glass wall so the whatever is the content of the dream pleasant or painful is already the reflection of the existence the awareness is already self-aware or the existence is already self-aware so there is a consciousness present and keeping that in mind this is the main purpose of the whole dreaming machine to be there in the first place but it's so completely overlooked because the content of the dream is so attractive and so enchanting that perhaps remembering that you know that some of the attention can be relaxed from the dreaming you and rest in that beautiful miraculous singularity of existence resting in it acknowledging it basking in it appreciating it then of course it pays off even further because psychological suffering eases off or disappears altogether and cornelius you have the hand up would you like to admit um like he said uh like if you have no physical is focused on i am but i am sort of the doorway It's like the last bit.

So just the idea that I am becomes the whole apparent exterior universe and that it's another thought. It's not capable of anything. The description is not the thing and the person that I think that I am is kind of a description of being there in the first place, which is all there really is. And it's kind of so amazing and infinite that no matter where you look, there's something there. And you can, like he said, the discoveries of science, you can look there and it'll go on forever and ever. And you can go down to a subatomic level and you can go out to like beyond the solar system, both directions.

So it's, is that the creative power of the mind? That doesn't matter. Trying to figure out how Maya works, trying to figure out what Shakti is doing, it's not the point. And the answer is to be... still, the Shakti dances and that's what she does. Maya becomes all this stuff and that's what it does. But the awareness doesn't do anything. The awareness is aware. If it's a shit fight, the awareness is aware of that. And if it's glory days in heaven, well, the awareness is aware of that. It doesn't, that's the bit that doesn't have the preferences. So, Cornelius isn't culturally or spiritually obliged to have any particular preference.

Or even morality, which is just another particular codification of a bunch of thoughts. When a bunch of us get together and decide how we're going to behave, if we're all living in an igloo together, you sort of, yeah, because we're just like a bunch of cats. We're just like a bunch of dogs. We're just like a bunch of cats. And there was a band called the Meat Puppets. And that's kind of like all these meat puppets together in small spaces have to figure out how they're not going to bump into the other meat puppets. And so much of what we deal with is cultural overlays, which are interpreted as morality and interpreted as good and bad, whether it's, it's, it's back to what he said.

It's all like a psychological overlay of what's going on, which is kind of neutral, because it's just now. And what's wrong with now if you don't think about it? And what's wrong with now if you don't think about it? But the, the, the Meat Puppet is so convinced of, um, Shakti's beautiful dance and his involvement in it, that it becomes another layer of conditioning, uh, to be seen through and to be let fall away. Because that which doesn't exist, never existed. The movie projected onto a cloud that was just passing by. Yeah. Yeah. That's tough. That's tough. And we have a comment here from someone who's watching Facebook, uh, live with us.

Uh, Phillip says, worthy, multi. All right. Thanks for saying his words and bringing us to the present present of the presence. And I see answers here. Sounds like how most people are raised. Memory is past, uh, is part of the mechanism when focus is given to now the mechanism adjust to the new power. Uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, trauma is diluted in the freshness. I suppose. Yeah. And even if trauma response actually shows up and there is no objections and there is no one who cares, there's no psychological suffering.

There's not even a preference for trauma response not to arise. Yeah. Like Bob would say, you know, where is the conditioning if you don't think about it? the behavior is is arising and without the label it's just behavior arising and yet uh what would you say cornell is you know life morality ethics societies it is all self-organizing movement like the like the gases form the planets the planets form solar systems the cells form systems in the body everything is constantly dancing the shakti dancing including ethics religion science morality they all expression of the same omnipotence showing up as religion science morality ethics resistance planetary system all of it and yeah cornell is says through that yes so seeing everything as as the as the you know the content cast because i am because there is an existence because there is a consciousness because there is a power you know like you can see thousand pictures images films movies apps on your computer screen but when you when there is power off nothing shows up so it's the power that is the primary uh of power life love existence god whatever you want to call it so that that omnipresence omnipotence omniscience that pure existence it needs display you know the computer you put on the computer and it shows up some display so you know that aha the power is on okay now i know doesn't matter what is on the display but yeah all right there is power i can see that when there is no display there is no power i mean you can't you can't even say is it or there isn't potentially it is but what does it mean potentially it means in actually in actuality it isn't it maybe you can't get the okay it just makes no sense so it is like this simple purpose of aliveness animate dance show think see hear taste touch smell experience experience what is being experienced well that's secondary so if we give credit where credit is due relax back into that primary cause the pure existence awareness of existence knowing of existence the promised bliss is here not to be found by the mind not to be sought for looked for and achieved is always already here just cover up with that veil of destruction okay good Dana okay number three um you might lose your catechism I'm so sorry I lost everything that nobody wants and all nation have hope right there's nothing we don't serve is everything you experience everything you see hear taste touch smell all of it is the reflection of that power of that essence all that shows up on the screen is a transformation of that power appearing as that up movie drama horror terror whatever trauma whatever it is it couldn't be there if not for the i am if not for the sense of existence like the biblical before the abraham was i am before the past before the history before the big bang and the beginning of the universe before the childhood the childbirth before motherhood my mother was born.

I am. If not for the consciousness, if not for the presence of existence, if not for the life force, there is no Abraham. There is no Bible. There is no history. If the body is a corpse, what sort of history? Yeah, but it had childhood in the past. Which past? Past is a thought. The life has to be there first. So bringing attention, bringing the heart back into that, into that miracle of existence, into that wonder and resting it there rather than spending it for nonsense, you know, like Teemu shopping. And I know a couple of Teemu shop addicts that squander all their wealth on a stupid little things for a dollar or two, which is, which are worth nothing, which land in the bin.

It's just for the dopamine rush coming from clicking and buying and getting it sent. That's how the attention is being wasted. And then yeah. Training to be everyone to be ADHD, addicted to pleasures, pleasure of scrolling the phones, pleasures of, of buying pleasures of eating, overeating, eating junk. Wow. Wow. If there is only a little bit of free attention, completely relaxed, that can actually just rest in space, rest us space, be what it is and see that incredible display. See that incredible strategies coming up. Nothing else. Okay. Now the thing exactly that saved us all is the fact that my memory of four months without judgment of that same thing.

So I can't think, I can't, I can't do anything like this. To get the energy to move on from this dream, I have with a smile of appreciation and knowing that did things, feeling in this dream,utetorance just sending them off whilst upholding my relationship. That was huge on me. And then what I had saved included thatша's to get everything there for a dollar, between then, money advice, education,ниеcluzeal money tools. the height access and import duties yeah sure yeah everything can have its own reasons and justification and it is life yes life resolving revolving improvising self-organizing yeah team is there because it is there so maybe a few other more teams and then politics will be reviewed or not and either way the main purpose or aim of existence finding out for that pure potentiality having the reflection of itself the i am that main purpose is already attained there is nothing else to get there is nothing no one else to become there is nothing more to learn this is already done you know that you are with certainty not like you are unconvinced and you need to read couple more books maybe you will believe it fake it till you make it and you're convinced apparently i was listening to another medical audiobook just for fun of it there is a syndrome some sort of a funny setting in the computer very very rare once among hundreds of thousands of of patients who are absolutely convinced that they are dead and there is no way of of saying otherwise yeah yeah but you say you are dead obviously you're here to even say it doesn't compute but i don't think any one of us here is that case so the awareness of existence the fact of discussing existence the capacity for hearing seeing tasting touching smelling is evidence enough that i am that the world is to show me that i am when the world disappears when we go to sleep at night well you don't even know that i am unless i'm dreaming then yes go on cornelius perhaps more the problem is that there are eight apparently eight billion people who are convinced that they're alive yeah maybe none of that really matters if i wasn't here if your body was a corpse there would be no worlds no billions no people the existence self-evident existence the world is because i am there is an existence there is awareness there is a mirror of presence of consciousness and because there is something reflected in that mirror the mirror is here consciousness is known and then within the dream of course within the dream there is a dream character who wants pleasure and not pain who wants safety and no danger who wants the trauma resolved and who wants more of the dream More money, more youth, more friendships, more love.

Wow. Wow. How cute. How sweet. From the perspective of the purpose of existence already being achieved. The essence of I am already revealed. Clearly, I am. That's it. The rest is just a bonus. So why not chill and enjoy the show? Make the most of the bonus. You see, the dream character getting pissed. Oh, yes, they betrayed me. They stole from me. Oh, how sweet. What a laugh, screaming. I want you to be safe and not want anything stolen from you. How lovely. Oh, the dream character says, yes, but I hate myself. I'm stupid and ugly. Oh, how cute. What a sweet movie. The love says, I have such high standards.

Still love. If there was no loving care, no commentary could even arise. And now Yvonne says, trauma resolved in time is the me that doesn't exist. Just chill and see what comes up. Sorrow or happiness. Yes. Two things. Of the same stick. Yay. Two sides, two ends of the same stick. Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's the attitude. Whatever arises, it will always be in between the extremes. Dark light up, down, left, right. Top button. Pleasure, pain, happiness, joy. It has to. Otherwise there is no. Yeah. Experience. We need to have that display on the screen to know that the power is on. As we know that the power is on, we may watch the movie.

We can enjoy it. And then, of course, to see anything whatsoever on the screen, the contrast is required. If you put the contrast down all the way, the screen will have no display. Nothing wrong with that. But since the contrast is as it is, we may as well appreciate the incredible. Incredible creativity of God, the creator. Creative capacity, depth of experiencing the intensity of the experiencing. Well, it's here. And it's only here because there is an existence. And we have another comment. Where does the evidence point to? All intellectual fields should be. Seen as a fun game playing in the sandpit. But they think they have followed the evidence and solidified the answer.

The only evidence there is, is that we exist. How can we assume to know anything without understanding what it is that is knowing? Yeah, it's cute, isn't it? That even science actually comes. So, finally arriving at the point. I think I've shared it before. Also, it disappeared from the Wikipedia, but there was a Kurt Gogol principle of what was that principle? Basically, just undermining all the evidence based science because the evidence that is collected within the field of science is is constructed from the axioms. It's established by that science. So it is really just a confirmation bias. Through other laws of quantum mechanics, we have the observer's effect, which says that you can't measure or prove anything objectively because the fact of observing is affecting the outcome of the experience.

And that cannot be excluded because then there is no result of the experience or the observation. So the science finds it all its own conundrum and says, look. I don't know. I don't know. But yes, that we are doesn't even need the evidence. It's self-evident. It's clear. It's obvious. It doesn't even need the proof that we are what we are. There is. That's the endless realm of speculation. Because how can we figure out what we are? Yeah. Because we are just moving the observer effect. It can't happen. It can't happen. So this unknowable and quantum mechanics really humble science laughing out loud says, and and Yvonne says, is the cat dead or alive.

Depends who or what is looking. Yeah, that's yeah. The Schrodinger humbling quantum science. If not for the. am there is no science science only exists because the because of the presence of conscious awareness because of that mirror in in which it can be reflected so science is the modern day religion because majority agrees on certain terms just like thousand years ago majority were agreeing that jesus was the son of god and you were not and few thousand years before that they were other collective um agreements within the communities which were then perceived as solid facts as science only today we say that all that religious beliefs you know there might be exactly uh maybe there even wasn't a jesus or maybe it was a little bit different science doesn't agree science is a modern day religion it has just a slightly different rules and again it only exists because of the presence of consciousness so again chilling out relaxing as awareness and enjoying the show enjoying the science it's lovely isn't it it's rigorous it's really scrupulous and when there is honesty and humility and it's really sweet and hank says liberation equals when cause and effect are together cause and effect liberation when cause and effect are together yeah because there is no separation liberation from the illusion of separation liberation from the illusion of cause and effect but absolutely because you know what these 6 6 organisms are if we were not in that category you would not be the first person in the world to communicate with you because you have come you are a Housingzony and that is why the presence of christ is great Easterんですailable a ministry, which works for you, for you and that's why that was your szer intriguing object about the center stage now I can say what human beings do and present a message about you in other words superiors or superiors just want to help you easily and for it is all about subjectivity stop it's it's like this or it's like that or it's uh yeah i mean freedom i mean i mean freedom freedom yeah yeah yeah that's the same because the the the the happening and the you know things happen and then after you you conceptualize yeah normally but there's there's a there's a very um yeah small distance you know between happening and the conceptualization conceptualization conceptualization is after the happening isn't it isn't that is that the case or not yeah can you hear me yeah yeah yeah absolutely yes yes narrative software is like a commentary on the football match yeah like this yeah yeah but it's very slightly you know it's just maybe not even a second it's like a commentary on the football match yeah but it's very slightly you know it's just maybe not even a second it's just very you know yeah that happening and when you conceptualize conceptualize that this you know but yeah when it goes together there's only this this this freedom just this yes or whatever you call it yeah thank you yeah thank you it's just whatever shows up just whatever is arising without any concept without telling the story that it arises and it means this and having all the all the narration happening is all the subtitles happening the movie is unfolding other creatures don't need that narration but again you know everything in a self-organizing universe in this magnificent expression of pure potentiality of that godliness of that field of whatever you call it you know the call it omnipresence omnipotence or love everything is is sharing the quality of that brilliant intelligence and is self-organizing so the fact that the narrative capacity has evolved in those human species and evolved evolved to the point that we can build a really really massive connections based on the same shared stories is is incredible it's humbling it's like you see it and wow it's like you see it and wow wow god is great and answers great hallelujah hallelujah yay and answers gravity could be the universal pull to come together again just the fun concept yay gravity yeah even that concept is being questioned uh in science is there such thing because anything um described or or even investigated in isolation to everything else uh becomes just a just just a concept but it is a fun concept yeah gravity gravitating um towards here the central point in which the universe collapses the whole mass and the whole images and everything collapses the universe collapses and everything collapses the whole mass and the whole images and everything collapses is right here and explodes into the galaxies and stars and whatever you want to conceive of right here all always here and i'm gonna i'm gonna invite you again anyone who have and who haven't spoken today would you like to contribute ask question or comment or highlight something or bring up a word or a sentence that stuck with you that um that was helpful or maybe that was confusing not helpful at all and and we could unpack it otherwise i'm gonna pick a card i'm gonna pick i'm gonna pick ouch this one i'll pick this one and bob says here recognize that there is nothing static or solid in the manifestation it is all transient dreamlike a reminder of a dreamy nature of everything what a beautiful reminder as the body is changing so are all the sensations only truth doesn't change truth is that which never changes says the definition and truth is the reality the truth what doesn't change even the space if you define it you must start giving it dimensions but what it points to the emptiness that one doesn't change and the dreamy nature of everything where are the thoughts we were sharing five minutes ago where is the last night dream where is the childhood where is the trauma where is the poor persian cat long sin seignal dead where is the dead persian cat if we don't think about it see the fleeting nature of everything that is that is reflected in that mirror of awareness mirror of existence of presence which is never changing which is clear which is translucent doesn't even have any shape any color any size it doesn't even have any separate existence as such and yet this multiverse of dreams passing phenomena passing feelings fleeting feelings the descriptions the arising phenomena and the response from the body arising to that which arises and the likes and dislikes towards the response what let's say hank is arising on my screen there may be a sense of oh i like hank arising on my screen and then there may be acknowledging of oh i see that i like hank arised on the screen in this body which is also a screen fleeting where is it now but that which reflects it the pure existence the pure isness the beingness it hasn't been touched by the phenomena but the fact of the phenomena arising makes it evident like that sign on the glass wall there is no glass wall still shows that there is a glass wall a sign of the mirror on the mirror mirror is a glass we have another seven minutes can we hear someone else yes yes I don't know what to say I always found getting back to krishna murty I always found found krishna murty to be like what his name says that they're very wordy very long-winded and it's very very true of indian people when i used to have my when i used to have my vedic astrology group all the indians used to say oh i i would i would say in a sentence what an indian would say in a page and uh they tend to be used for way too many adjectives and you know and uh and unfortunately the the simple message gets lost i think in the in in the long-winded sort of flowery sort of tales, the simplicity of the message.

That's where Bob, being an Australian, he keep it simple, stupid. The kiss principle, it applies because there's nothing more simple than one. You know? So any time you start to talk about two, you know you've moved away from oneness. But see, the thing is, the problem is, is whenever you open your mouth, you've got to move into seeming duality. So you can't, you have to be savvy enough to be aware of that and realize that as soon as somebody opens their mouth, they're going to seemingly be talking in duality, where... it's all the one, all the one functioning. Nothing more simple than one, one without a second.

And that's why I always say that we talk about omnipresence, omnipotence and omniscience, and, you know, that seems seemingly three things, you know, but of course we're talking about the one thing that has those three, three factors built into it. That's where sort of language, language fails us. And of course, when you talk about omnipresence, omnipotence, omniscience, where does that leave room for a you or a me or anything separate from it? It doesn't, it's impossible. So everything is that. And that's where the great saying, the great saying, the great saying, comes from I am that. What is that? Well, that's the closest you'll ever come to it with a thought, is to say that.

I am that. And so, what are we talking about? I am that. You're talking about your sense of presence, your beingness, the life force that's living you. Whatever you want to call it, it doesn't really matter what you call it, because whatever you call it is not it. Whatever you call it, whatever description you can give of it, the description is never. The it's never what you're talking about is the word is never the thing is what I'm trying to say. The word is never the thing. As Bob used to say, you can say, you know, water, water, water, and it will never quench your thirst.

You can say hamburger, hamburger, hamburger, and you can have visions and thoughts of a hamburger. Yeah. Yeah. hamburger, melted dripping cheese, running down the sides of an ice cheeseburger, but it's not going to fill your stomach. The image is never the thing. So that's why we always have to determine the real from the unreal. And the problem is the real. What is real is very hard to... Well, you can describe it. You can say it's timeless, formless, spaceless, et cetera, but none of those words are that. They are just pointing towards that timeless, formless, spaceless state, which you are anyway. You can't get away from being that anyway.

Even if you're confused about being that, you're still that. So you don't really have... You don't really have to worry about it because you are that already. So see what you are as opposed to what you're not. And you are half... Well, you're there. See... Didn't Nisargadatta say that? Didn't he say that? See the false is the false? And that's all you have to do. You have to see the false as being false. And then what is left over, what is self-evident, is what you are. But you can never really describe that. You can point at it and you can say, I am that. But that's just another description you're putting on it.

So you can't really... And see, I don't think it takes books and books and books. Like Krishnamurti wrote, like God knows how many books. You know what I mean? I suppose... It's very interesting because Jonas, who often turns up at the meeting, Jonas from Sweden, he used to know Krishnamurti. He used to work at his school in Brockford, I think it was. It was Brockford in England. I think Krishnamurti had a school there. And Jonas used to actually be at the school. And he said Krishnamurti was a very, very lonely man. He says... He said... He... When he spoke to him, he says, oh, nobody wants to challenge me.

Everybody sort of treats me as a deity and nobody wants... He wanted to be challenged. He wanted to have the argy-bargy arguments. He wanted people to come in and question him. But of course, people didn't. People sort of put him up on a pedestal. And he... And Jonas says he came across as being a very sort of... A very lonely guy. He said he'd see him out in the garden at the school. And he'd always be by himself. And, you know, so that's another thing that people tend to do. They tend to put people on pedestals and think, oh, I could never be like that.

Or I could never be like him. And he's sort of godly and I'm ungodly. Whereas when you get to... You actually get to meet these people, you realize they're no different than anybody else. The only difference is, is they know what they are. They know what they are as opposed to what they're not. And that is what makes them very special. Because, I mean, how many people know that? I mean, you look at the world, you've got 99% of people coming from the other way. I'm a person. I'm a separate entity. I have free will. I have autonomy. I have my religion. My religion's better than your religion.

And all the rest of the bullshit. That they go on with. That's what 99% of people... The life 99% of people live. And then you have, say, the 1% that says, no, I'm not that. I am the omniscience, omnipresence. I am that. I am that very life that lives every other life. And I'm not separate from anybody else. And the same life that lives me lives everybody else. So how can I see anybody better than me? Or below me? Or above me? Or below me? How can I? When you come from a very egalitarian perspective then. That doesn't mean you have to like the way a person's functioning.

That doesn't mean you have to like the way they're patterning. Doesn't mean you have to like the way they're behaving. You might hate that. You might can't stand the way they're behaving. You might be a total asshole. But you still respect the life they are. Even if you don't want to have anything to do with them, you still say, well, deep down, they are that life that I am. They just can't see it. They've just put too many layers on top of them. You know, I am this. I am that. I am this. I am that. I am this. I am that. Until that pure life that they are has been completely covered over by concepts and beliefs, systems.

And then, as I said last time I spoke, we have the modern world. And all we have is a belief system fighting a belief system. Oh, my Torah is better than your Koran. No, no, no. My Bible says the truth. It's your Koran is full of bullshit. Your Torah is full of bullshit. And I can never see how that can be reconciled. I can never see how that can be reconciled. They'll fight to the last man for that belief system. And there's nothing we can do about it. So you just have to. But unfortunately, they, you know, none shall come thy dwelling place. But unfortunately, they do come thy dwelling place as well.

They do start to interfere in your life and telling you how to live and how you should act. And, you know, so that's where it becomes a big problem. That becomes a really big problem. You might want to be peaceful. You might see yourself as the omnipresence. And somehow or else comes along and says, oh, no, no, no. You've got to believe in my book. You've got to follow what I tell you. You know, you've got to, you know, you've got to get up and pray five times a day, whatever it is, or you've got to do this or you've got to do that. And so that's where that's that's the root of all the conflict.

And it's all here. It all comes out of the mind of man. It has nothing to do with the natural state. It has nothing to do with the natural state. It's just a belief systems. I think I've gone over time here. Sorry about that. Gone over time. Take this into account. Yeah. Gone over time. That was worth it. We're on time and a half now. Wow. No. Fantastic. Yes. Thank you. Thank you. I just see what's going on in the world now. And you know, I mean, you know, what hope can you have the way things are going? You know, things just seem to be just getting worse.

And worse and worse. And then rather than people coming towards our the way of seeing the world. More people are going into more hardcore belief systems, you know? Yeah. And see, the problem is, is they want to impose them on on other people. You know, that that's where it all all the trouble starts. Yeah. You know, if you if you were just if you were just prepared to have your belief system and believe it and just not. Bother anybody else from but with it, that's okay. But that's that people don't do that. They don't do that. They have to. They want to convert people. They want to get out there and, you know, change people to the way they think.

Oh, you've got to believe what I believe. And so just that's just can't sit. I can't see how it can be reconciled. No, we can't. We can't. That's the human condition. That's the that's the dark part of a dream. Without the darkness, there is no light. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, that's right. All you can do is all you can do is set your own salvation. Yeah. Worry about your own salvation. Then then then as I said, you you walk through the world and none shall come thy dwelling place. You know, even if it does come your dwelling place, there's not much you can do about it anyway.

Yeah. Just just chill. You know, like in 50 years, no, none of us is going to be here. So. Oh, well, that's right. In another probably another five years, I won't be here to worry about it. So, you know, no big deal. No big win. Yeah, no biggie. Whatever the dream is, whatever the content of the dream is secondary primary goal is I am I know that I am I know that I am and answers and Hanks says, Hallelujah and answers a handful of light can balance billions. laughing out loud. I think that's the time for us to just wrap it up and thank you.

Thank you, everyone for being here. And then thank you for contributing. Lots of love.