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gonna do that now and see if anyone wants to start us off any takers for bringing back streaming up a few certainties together certainty of existence no one's lacking that whoopsie sorry or maybe questions sometimes bob would start the whole gathering from looking around oh there's no one you everyone's been here before everybody knows what it is all about everybody heard the spiel so what what what are the challenges what are the issues what's clear what's unclear and I think anyone well we're gonna start the conversation yes hey okay so we have you Isabel and we have Steven wait for the starting us off who of you yes I want to explain I was now for maybe six weeks not on camera but I was in a hospital and now I have about one week two weeks big flu and I don't like to go not on camera but I wanted to explain it why it is like this okay that's that was it and yeah I can maybe start with something a question because that is a question for a lot of what what what could we say about the awareness and then the consciousness because sometimes they use awareness and consciousness the same and finally it is all consciousness that's what what could you say cat's about awareness and the consciousness.
Can you see there the difference or can you say it is the seeing and then it's the beautiful dance, the dream, it expresses in this view? Could you speak about that? Sure, yeah, thank you for the question. The way, and again it all depends on the agreement on terms, the way Nisargadatta was using awareness is more or less the way quantum physics uses the term field, field of infinite possibilities or the potentiality, just the potentiality. So awareness is prior to consciousness, utterly unconscious. That kind of sounds almost ridiculous, but how can the electricity be conscious until it runs to the computer which this particular computer we call conscious?
So that's the awareness. Awareness is a potentiality for the expression. It can express us consciousness. It can express us any pattern, any shape, any form. Consciousness is just one of the expressions. So again, now it gets a difficult term. Okay. to agree upon the most common sort of a definition of consciousness I think agreed amongst the scientists too is that to be conscious it means to know that you are or it means you know like this heart problem of consciousness imagining imagining how it is to be that particular object or creature that we assume is or isn't conscious for example a brick wall is it conscious if I imagine myself to be a brick wall it's not quite a sensory experience to it I can't see hear taste that's nah there isn't really much to it so we call it unconscious that's the agreement even though there is an essence the atoms moving they are subatomic particles constantly vibrating their life they are life as everything else but this is where the definition comes handy this is the agreement now if I imagine a mouse is it something to it how it is to be a mouse you know mouse can see OK so it can process the visual information here it can run the heart can see you know so it can process the visual information here it can run the heart can see you know so it can process the visual information here it can run beating yeah okay there is definitely something to it there is some content of experiencing so we can say mouse is conscious because it provides the space for that content while the brick wall or the or the stone does not really provide much of a space those are just agreements because all we can ever speak of is our own direct experience so imagining someone else's consciousness is still what it is is still imagining but for the sake of pointing those two terms have been introduced so nisargadatta would introduce the term consciousness is the transformation of awareness when the awareness shows up in this particular form as it shows up as a as a consciousness through the through the vessel or vehicle of the body mind so now it still doesn't stop being awareness it is just channeled to that knowing of existence knowing being knowing loving to be so it knows that it is whilst before it doesn't really it potentially does but in actuality it doesn't it needs the reflection needs the vehicle to actually have any sense whatsoever it has to be a duality there has to be a background of opposite of no sense so if there is an existence there is at least an an imagined non-existence so awareness is beyond all dualities it neither exists nor it doesn't it it it neither is nor it isn't and though it can appear as a pattern shape and form and in this it has an existence but is it really because it is still the emptiness appearing so it has a seeming existence it appears as something so it appears as this body mind it appears as those words so then it is called consciousness but there never is a tool there's always only one appearing as many it's just like that metaphor of a dream or something it can happen so what day can this be a 근데 it can happen anytime you want it's impossible because no matter how long you don't matter too many units your thoughts you know so there's nothing really Maleficant it can't do anything and the effect on the whole humanity it's a ется really any intention for this But each and every one is really nothing.
It's the no thing. It's nothing appearing as a thousand little drops. Just like in the dream, when you dream of the spider webs with the dew drops on it, they're made of nothing. They appear to be. And this one, this waking dream is no different. It appears to be. So that it doesn't really, it's actually a lovely challenge to even consider clarifying terms while language by its very nature complicates things. Things are simple. Existence is simple. It's self-evident. It's here. Now, if we want to start clarifying, okay, to which extent is this awareness? And to which extent is this consciousness? Now the mind takes a role of dividing.
And now trying to assume the boundaries. Where is the awareness ending and the consciousness starting? They are inseparable. Consciousness is an appearance. Awareness appearing as consciousness. Come here. Come. The cat wants to participate in the call. Just like everything else is appearing. Within the consciousness. So it isn't, it's like Bob would say sometimes, you know, everything appears in space. Can you postulate anything outside of space? You can't. Everything that you ever think of, conceive or perceive is still an appearance in space. And the Buddhist told you that space is appearing as form. It's like the reflection in the mirror. What is it made of? It's made of a mirror.
It's made of a mirror. It's made of a mirror. It's still the same one. It appears as many, but it's still the same one. And it appears in consciousness. Consciousness is a mirror. But what is the consciousness? Consciousness is the transformation of the potentiality for consciousness, which is awareness. But for our purposes, as much as pointing and bringing back those two ideas. Talking about just the different ones and their different puree The arts, we know that what doesn't form that will return. That's where the mind comes into it, and theня's mind comes into it too. You know, after you know it, you know, you can tell someone we can all change.
We can all make change. We all strong people. Yeah. And making a life change. anything it's just stop digging it just stop trying to grasp it and work it out because direct experience again is super simple can we experience awareness we are awareness can we experience the consciousness well what is the we can we actually separate anything whatsoever and then we see that in the direct experience this is it whatever name we call it whatever label we graciously adorned that space with that was another one of a Bob's lovely little metaphors adornments adorn adornments of space and this is again the best visible when you look at the fantasy you look at the daydream you know what you what you're gonna do tomorrow oh I'm gonna go to a swimming park maybe so there is a vision there suddenly adornment in space there's no swimming pool here it's just a thought it's just an idea and I think we have a question yes you can also yes you say beautiful because there was nothing to grasp there's nothing take out it and that's the magic for yeah the mind has his words and this make me understand his opinions but it is one and yeah and the mouse have another capacity and the bird had another capacity and this vehicle this beautiful walking human has this also is yeah to go in this dream and like you mentioned the awareness has no capacity in itself but it can have to to see that it's yeah like Bob always said to us, it is a dormant you cannot grasp it, it is empty and it is not empty you cannot pinpoint the beginning you cannot pinpoint an ending it is not becoming never ever becoming it is always here this now, right here and yeah you explained very well thank you and I think we have a comment here from Yvonne, awareness equals consciousness there is no separation anywhere only thoughts can get in the way and it just reminds me Yvonne's comment reminds me of Bob's elegant little definition that is very intuitive but it's also I'm biased but it's really elegant awareness is an existence no consciousness is an existence utterly aware that it exists so when the existence or awareness or the potentiality suddenly can't deny the fact of its own being not its being just being mm-hmm is it time you can maybe maybe the closest you can say it is the knowing and it's a living the knowing the seeing the hearing yeah that's that's that's the that's the mystery to see there is the knowing and yes we human have words to all the existence what we see but you cannot give a word because it is for every country different word and then you see the oneness it's appearing us everything and the emptiness in the same yes and that's really yeah you you put it nicely that is really the knowing parameter you know the knowing in humans expressing us knowing through seeing knowing through thinking knowing through hearing tasting touching smelling it is all form of knowing it's just it's just knowing through all those different channels so if the knowing is extinguished you know when the when the body falls unconscious or is dead there is no channel of knowing there is no knowing so we say the consciousness is gone mm-hmm and same when we say you know like the the mug with the with with the tea it's got no channel of knowing according to of course our projection and definition because again you know like every atom is moving vibrating everything in a dream is is alive in a certain sense but what we call consciousness is the capacity to process information mm-hmm it is the capacity for knowing yeah wow mm-hmm and it is and it is still you know it's still we can't overestimate bringing it back from the scientific speculation which is changing every roughly every 60 years the main the main sort of pillars of science are being challenged and change to the direct experience to that which can actually be verified and known directly rather than believed you know because we can agree upon terms that yes this mug doesn't have eyes ears can't see hear taste touch smell so is unconscious but that's really again still in the domain of believing yes and you know the the scientists they forget and in the moment when they see something there is the knowing only the knowing mm-hmm and then you can make a lot of mm-hmm explaining of quarks and everything like that but there is still the knowing always that and that is the wandering yeah and the and the whole dream you know you could actually perceive it from the point of view of the of information somehow somewhat you know the dream that you dreamt last night the book that you read the movie that you watched the plans goals all of it is a form of this is a form of information happening appearing in the field it's an expression mm-hmm mental images expressions of that pure potentiality yeah it's it's the same when you put one camera in in the in the in the room mm-hmm and the camera can see the 360 degrees but is needing the consciousness or awareness to see that the camera don't see nothing but the living need to use it to to to know it and yeah yeah and this is where we get to the body I had I don't know if if he's with us today but I had a couple of meetings in the email exchanges with no he's not with us with someone who is really struggling with the idea of not being the body or being the body and this is really easily seen just what you were saying is about on the example of the camera you know the camera it's not who I am mm-hmm the camera can see anything and everything but until there is a conscious presence decoding or processing the information from the camera well the camera is pretty much just a piece of equipment and so are the human eyes which are representative of the camera and so are the human legs which would be a representation of of any other form of a vehicle and and everything else even though it is alive in human it is alive they are cells changing like in a physical like in a drone they are they are atoms mm-hmm moving and vibrating and and and so on so the definition of aliveness is is much much more difficult mm-hmm you take a droplet of water and it's just full of life and it can even remember information of some sort yeah yeah but but generally to see that you know that the equipment which is used for the consciousness to translate the the energy field into a visuals like eyes or brain or whatever we want to conceptualize mm-hmm it's not the consciousness itself it's a crotch mm-hmm you know if you put yourself in the jet plane you're gonna fly faster if you're gonna put yourself on a bicycle you're gonna ride slower if you give yourself a telescope you're gonna see further and needless to say you're not the jet plane you're not the telescope mm-hmm and they are even they are even expected to be able to see further and so on and so forth mm-hmm and they are even experiments where you know people who are deaf are listening using their teeth or people who are blind actually are completely aware of the circadian rhythm they can even though their eyes may be completely burned out they somehow 100% of the time can distinguish when they are asked whether it is daylight or the or nighttime they know somehow that's anyway that's that's still a piece of an information that comes from third hand we're not blind thankfully mm-hmm no no no but there are people are blind and they have the same consciousness that is the knowing in a different way because the visual is not working but the rest is yeah mm-hmm and we have another comment answers I got in a pointless talk in YouTube comments it's a little sad that we can't bring our truth up at all and defend or explain it in a way anyone unaware of it could understand in the end I had to walk away without resolving it with agree to disagree they just wanted to call me stupid saying they don't even know what they are disagreeing with laughing out loud mm-hmm yeah yeah that's the that's the mm-hmm yeah that's the predicament of non-duality it really isn't anything to teach it isn't really anything to impart on anyone else if there is an attraction towards direct knowing and direct deep in-depth investigation well wonderful that pays off if there is no attraction mm-hmm then you know arguing with the mind discussing this with the mind mind which usually by its nature wants to preserve the model of reality the map of reality that it already has constructed and it works for it mm-hmm so if you discuss with someone who is very materialistically oriented or who worship the the the god of money or who worship Jehovah or whatever it is mm-hmm that map of reality is already providing whatever this machine needs for optimal functioning and survival unless they are really moved to challenge it there is no way of you know the the machine will just defend its own coherence will preserve its own will just be trying to convince itself that I can not only be a god but there is any potential that is to be made specific in order to be a god mm-hmm self by all possible way that this is right this is correct you are an idiot everybody else got it wrong this works for me it must be true and and that is you know from the practical perspective it's understandable it's perfectly fine it's just that if you really want to meet and share your heart and bring someone a beautiful gift of light and that gift can't be received because the tool that is that is taking it in is the mind is the division tool is the duality instrument is the instrument that can't actually see what you're pointing because you're pointing is as if you are pointing to the machine that is trying to grasp the electricity or the power that is actually animating it you can't so yes discussions mind to mind head to head are absolutely pointless there is no um there's no resolution and yeah very often it ends up in in in stupid unnecessary abuses and over the years i would have occasionally uh comments on bob channel on my youtube channel where you could see people you know if they genuinely curious and they ask questions or they come comment with with their beliefs uh it's no harm in just you know like acknowledging someone but there was quite a few really aggressive abusive fanatics who would just throw you know the trolls the internet trolls who are just there to assert their own sense of significance i exist look someone will read what i say and traditionally again the mind is wired to prioritize danger abuse and pain for survival purposes that's why when you look at the news you know if you really want if the tv channel or radio channel wants to share news much as possible the television channel is going to sit in the presence of people if you really really want to talk about legal politics what should people do if theyQueue for getting gear?
his reason is getting gear? vert Weather? right no? survive it wants to keep and hold the attention and it is much much easier by scaring and stressing people because then they just in fight flight they must rather than offering something that is less dangerous and less less important for survival that by nature is not going to win the competition because we are all descendants of those who prioritized paying attention to potential danger yeah and and sorry for your experience and yes I guess we probably all can relate to it in some extent to the other is evenly Yes in my holy day I was walking on the beach and someone walked before me and he felt my energy and so he story started to talk and he was a medium is that a good word for you too the medium someone who connects with the dead ones and and he said that my energy was very nice and so we got this conversation so um yeah you can easily uh find or feel whether someone um is ready to talk about anything because uh also when i have an email or yeah i sell books someone ask me something i can feel uh whether and the energy when someone really wants to know something or they are just curious and they want to go in the mind so um yeah when you meet someone without words you can feel um where they are and what they want and uh if they really want to connect and have a good talk or just be curious and have a talk about nothing no about not anything not about this stuff or about a really good talk and i'm not up to uh the small talks so uh yeah they feel it so that that's what i wanted to say and when ant has that experience yeah you can also feel whether it's on youtube or whatever is written when you read between the lines you you know it you know it for certain when someone really is interested or they just want to break down everything that's what i wanted to say yeah yeah and even wanting to be right and defend the world view you know it's it's it's love of being even that is love of being they might be really rigid narrow-mindedness it might be lack of curiosity but you don't really know the amount of mental illness in that in that particular machine and those some of those ideas depends how they are presented can become quite confronting for the very very fragile structure for various sort of uncertain map of reality in which you know the of solidity and reality of rules and gods and priests and brings some sense of peace and coherence and without it the machine just goes psychotic so what I find actually the most beautiful and the most fascinating when I talk to people who are and that doesn't happen that often I usually have enough of the words per week just from doing individual calls and blessed am I to always speak with people who are actually really drawn to that but I do actually also occasionally hang out with with other people and I never really present them with the non duality though I always highlight can't help it that which they already know somewhat somehow innately from life it that which they already know somewhat somehow innately from life from life experience from different programs like i mentioned before bob and i we used to go to a 12-step group for friends and families of alcoholics called alanon they have program in which there is a higher power power greater than myself the power of the group the power which bob and i started blatantly called the power that we call life and half of the group kind of naturally adopted that same vocabulary or language they also have a basic reminders that hey future is out of reach don't bother yesterday is gone don't bother people come up with those little little helpful realization like okay but just pause just get grounded just take a breath in normal conversations the they they do have those mini glimpses of the greater wisdom and when you point it out even in a way like wow wow stop stop stop can you say it again this is great this is beautiful that actually that works wonder without ever giving imposing anything on anyone just allowing them just allowing them to be themselves in a position where when they actually do have to be the individual few seconds of time or even more than what they did they are getting too excited to be the individual you know i mean that is typical until you think about it a lot how big of a surprise is that that or like why is it that it's about this how able to be all the things that are not like a human being right it's just or not but it's couldn't be anything in particular it's not it's not as simple and even the most basic things that we know about it's not as simple as all the you are yet to see healthy you are not the only one who has an animal you are a human person and we sometimes it just shines and it's just collecting those little sparkles of shining light and highlighting that which already already shines being curious about what they found out what really works not giving anything just presence just space and letting them find their own answers and share them just as much as and i remember being a seeker and wanting to shout it from the rooftops the beats that i've already understood and wanting to share and and i was having long conversations my mother and my sister and everyone they were sick of me because i just wanted to speak i didn't want to listen my mother was into some conspiracies or belief systems or ideas or maps or uh you &%µ, grew out of it in in my late twenties so my my thing was better why would i waste time on listening to her you shut up listen to me me, me!!
that dropped away there if there is no one here there's no agenda here tell me tell me hmm interesting it's actually quite surprising how open this open secret really really is i remember studying course in miracles where it was said sometimes that everyone has already got it you're the last one you're the only one who doesn't really get it come on wake up to yourself you're already here you're already that you're already holy holy whole and complete but okay i finished the sentence isabel i saw your hand up can you come back hey can you unmute yes you can hear me now yes well you put it already so beautiful and if all also because yes the pointers from bob they are so beautiful they have so much yeah energy that it pointed direct to your heart and that is the the mystery of that words that can bring you home you i am that i am and you can really feel down in this openness and that is so beautiful that you can see that the language has also as beautiful resonations even when you met someone like yvonne i was here in amsterdam you have to the reichs museum it's a beautiful museum with a lot of beautiful beautiful painters and sculptures and they have sculptures from india africa egypt wooden sculptures there was a long time ago in the village and people come around them and when i visited the this sculptures whoa there was so much energy ground the the the the thrilling the vibration you can see that the mystery a lot of people was there for many many many many thousand years but yeah we know there is only now here this but that was as was a big beautiful meeting for me for here this energy to see when you read the sculptures that it was so huge resonation on the ground tone of everything yes that was the power that reveals power release power reveal power power to see and to be with this sculpture.
Yeah, that is beautiful. And like you mentioned, yeah, even when you have no good talks with no one or good talks or resonation, yeah, it is all the one, everything. And the dog have poo-poo. Or if you drink a glass of tea, it is all in this oneness that's coming up in this beautiful mystery. And I have, this body is not very lucky with health, but yes, it is what it is. And my mother was yesterday, yes, you're always sick. I said, oh, I always think, I think. She said, yeah, my body is not so lucky, but I'm happy in myself. And that is the truth.
The body is the instrument to go in this relationship. And to see and to feel. And yes, they will also experience not so healthy bodies. That's the mystery. Yeah, that's what I want to say. Yeah, yeah. And even if the body was really, really lucky, genetic makeup, perfect, no broken hips, bones, or even fingernails, that body is temporary anyway. Yes. So to be able to appreciate the fact that it is there, that awareness of existence, tank to the tank to that processor, which is translating the pure thousand volts, that the pure voltage of life essence itself into that seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling. And then yes, every thread is another dream everywhere.
Mm-hmm. And the attention focuses. There is another beautiful way of creation of expression. You know, you pick a sculpture and you can emotionally, energetically connect with the more attention, the more life goes in it with whatever has ever been associated. And it comes to life and it is beautiful. It couldn't be possible if not for the body, whether healthy or sick, whether lucky or unlucky, if not for the fact that you are, and you have this transformer, which can actually appreciate whatever's happening. So, and this is really, yeah, I'm sorry that this, this person struggling with, with health issues is not with us because, you know, sometimes when, when life gets very, very tough, we completely forget that, uh, it's really, it's, it's really tougher.
And if you look around and if you see, uh, that, you know, you having a broken heap or you having one eye and, and, and, and, uh, sitting on wheelchair, it's not the death sentence, not the end of the world. The appreciation is still possible. If the attention goes to the right place, if it, if it, if it looks from the heart rather than from mind, which is constantly comparing, I was sharing with the person, I have two very, very dear, very close, uh, girlfriends in Poland, uh, that I had incredible adventures on the two ladies on the wheelchair to ladies, my age and myself.
And we've been in places where people on wheelchair could never possibly be. Yeah. And skydiving and going on the walking dunes because of the attitude of how can we appreciate the dream within the limitations that we have? Yes, we can't fly. Okay. Are we going to get self PD? I'm going to get depressed because bird can fly and I can't or, or, or healthy person who doesn't have spinal B, fetal or whatever they can dance. And I can't. Yeah. Yeah. That is perfect too. That expression of life through that dramatic, uh, amplification of self PT and pain is perfect too. Yes. And you know, it's only the mind that can, um, make a story about it.
That's, uh, in the moment comes to story from the mind. Oh, I don't like this. Oh, I want to help the body. Oh, this is life is shitty. And it's always too late because there is only now. And then now it's so beautiful, fresh and new. It's nothing going on. Do you see the colors and the forms and the, the mind can only, uh, they want to becoming, I mean, English is the verb trap. There's always, uh, the calming, the calming, the calming. Okay. Okay. And I hear you last, uh, meeting say, I hear you saying, and I, I, I, I was really, I like it that, you know, when you ask your mind, then the people say, Oh, the mind, or the mind.
No, the mind is also nice too. But then you say the mind is like, uh, like, uh, TV. Uh, you take another channel. You think on your motor. Oh, wow. You are now with your motor. You think on yesterday. Oh, well, poof. You think on, uh, your daughter. Wow. Poof. Another channel. That's a magic too, that we can also appreciate when we have no comments about it. And, uh, that's, that's a beautiful tool from the minds. That's, uh, yeah. And not complaining, not once yesterday, not one tomorrow, not one to becoming, not one to be different. Then it's everything in, in, in, in peace. And it's only the, I am.
And then you're never not here. And that is so, so, so, uh, yeah, like this. Yeah. I so appreciate you, Isabel on, on thousand thousand different ways and levels, but especially, you know what you say, I can hear in your, in your voice that you still have a little bit of a, of a health challenge. And I've seen you in a hospital for a couple of times. And, and there is still so much of a demonstration of a true demonstration of love and appreciation for that, which is miraculous rather than just, you know, just being bitter and resentful, really coming from the heart rather than coming from the mind, which is always complaining.
And yes, mind is to be appreciated too. And yes, those complaints, like we did on the last meeting, when Yvonne brought us the, the, the beautiful quote from, yeah, it was beautiful. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. I listened again and again. It was beautiful. Yes. The, the mind complaining, this is love too, but we may, we can experience, know it and express it directly rather than translate it into complaints comparisons when not necessary. So this, this is the invitation of this, of this message, knowing directly rather than through this crotch of the interpreter, which always converts it into something that is related to the imagined self and always want what is not.
Yeah. Yeah. Like you really say, not the imagined self. That's such a huge, ah, such a huge seeing the imagined self that clings, that, that, that glue on the, on the thoughts. And that is already the imagined self. I have called, I have hunger. That is to see that that is already gluing. And it is nothing because when it says I have called, and then a second later, oh, I have hunger and the hunger and the cold. It's already there. There is already the knowing to take a pull pullover or you take a nice scarf or you go to the fridge, you see the body and take a yogurt.
Yeah. You know, that's always that, that, that, that, that commentary is always too late. That is also to see really directly to see that it's always too late. It is already a knowing from that. So, I'm sorry. I see everyone has something to say. There is a comment here. There is no one to talk or not talk to anyone just happening. Yeah. There is a crack in everything. That's where the light gets in. The eye has lots of cracks, but I am that, that, I am. Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful. Yeah. The inconsistencies and cracks of that mental image. That is actually really beautiful thing to explore.
You know, like how many eyes is there really? How many different mental images are constructed for the purposes of navigating the body mind for survival? Are you the same eye for your mother as you are for your child? Are you the same eye for your mother as you are for your child? Yeah. Are you the same eye, the same sort of a projection of the vessel of a vehicle in relation to your medical doctor as you are in relation to your cleaning routine at home or your shopkeeper or, you know, you can see how many different personas are projected automatically for the purpose of navigating the whole vessel surviving in the world.
You don't speak to the policeman the same way you speak to your lover. You don't speak to the policeman the same way you speak to your lover. And Yvonne, you on. Yes, I mean the cracks in everything. So like Isabel is talking about her body as a lot of cracks. And yeah, my body doesn't have a lot of cracks, but I am emotionally. I am cracked because of my youth and everything. So everything is, everyone has a special way to walk and, and maybe that's why we are here. And otherwise we might not have been here because when everything goes smooth in life, there's no need to explore anything.
So yeah, it's necessary to be here to walk the talk, I think. And that's what Isabel does too. And yeah, many, many things are not visible, but they are also cracks. And yeah, the advantage of this is, yeah, nothing happens out of nothing. Yeah, it has to be the way things are. Also, the way that things are happening is not what we want, but it's not for nothing. It is just one doing it all. So, we all have our challenges and yeah, you have to take them all in to, to be, to be alive, to, to, to make it to, yeah. Otherwise you throw the child away with the barbed water.
How do you call it in English? That's what I wanted to, to add to Isabel. Yeah. Beautiful. And yes, absolutely. Everything has its place in the appearance. You know, the villain and the hero, the pain and the pleasure, the day and the night, the, the winter and the summer, the cold and hot and up and down. And psychological suffering has a special place in this, in this whole show because it is a great natural motivator for the deep investigation. Yes. Otherwise you don't do it. I think when you look up or look at everyone here in the Zoom, I think they all have that in common.
There is no deep investigation. When everything goes smooth and there's nothing going on and you're doing well in the world and the world is fine. And you think that that's all real. And unfortunately, yeah, it went otherwise. Yeah. The fun, fun fact is that everything is so relative that really, you know, when you look at the generation of people from Bob's generation who went through, who went through world wars and crises and great depressions and, and, and lots of, lots of calamities, there were sicknesses which weren't even named less alone. They could be remedied and, and also cultural backwardness in a way that created and comparable resilience.
The, the extra extremes that they went through, extreme darkness and extreme light created incredible resilience in the body. Today, you can see how people can get traumatized if you use the wrong word, you know, like I had my Mandela girls couple of days ago, they say, now you can't use the word gay anymore. I don't know why suddenly this became a bad word or something. I don't know. I don't follow these things. In, in, in my heart intention, tonality, the, the facial expression, the body language has so much more into the communication than just the, just the line of, of letters. But those things are changing.
And, and, and, and I think I mentioned before a friend of mine that I met in Byron Katie's school was severely traumatized because her 11 year old son committed suicide over the iPhone or something. So those things, it may feel like, you know, what do you know about suffering? You know, you have both legs, you have both eyes, you, you fairly young, you fairly strong, you have roof over your head. You live in the first world country. You know where your next meal is coming from. You're not like, you know what you see in the, in a third world countries, which I've seen a lot traveling around, working at sea.
And, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, working at sea. So what are you complaining about? But the truth is every suffering is extreme and is real even if the suffering is about the broken nail. And when the mind does not have, you know, if the if the extremes are set in the temperature scale, you know from and the temperature is actually a good example of resilience as well. And you know, you know, like 100 years ago, or maybe even 100 years ago, you know, when Bob was growing up, there was no electricity. They were sitting in oil, oil lamps, kerosene lamps.
So they were also the firewood. There was a central heating. No, there was no central heating in the house. So they were gathering around the kitchen and the stove. And the temperatures between day and night, if no one get up in the middle of the night and add the fire, the wood to the fire, the coal to the fire, would drop 20 degrees from the warm house to zero, just like outside. So the resilience was incredible. People could actually withstand the five degrees temperature difference without needing to put five jumpers or shiver. Today, when everybody's living in an air conditioned room, and you just click the button and you have exact temperature the way you want to, now the half a degree difference and the body kicks the stink, and the mind kicks the stink.
Like go and try and have a cold shower. How difficult it is today for people. And not long ago, there was no other option but the cold shower. If you don't have a cold shower, you're just, you're dirty. So but those are just to illustrate the relativity of, the suffering and the relativity of everything that appears in the world. You know, today, someone is relatively poor if they don't own the car. I'm relatively poor. You know, 100 years ago, people were relatively poor if they didn't, you know, the older doesn't really matter. I don't I don't really have the facts around that. But really, in a first world country, those those things are changing.
And are very, very relative because I don't have any sense of lacking anything whatsoever. I don't have any sense of being poor or rich or anything whatsoever. There's no sense or no need for the evaluation of a situation. But if I fill up the census form, and I'm asked those questions, well, okay, they will put me on the threshold with the poor guys because my yearly income isn't as high as as the neighbor or whatever. But but those things are relative because, you know, have you seen a millionaire who had enough? And how many millionaires who don't have enough go into drugs and exchange partners five, six, seven, eight times go to then alcohol and end up killing themselves.
Look at the old celebrities in in Hollywood, they allegedly have everything that society defines as the definition as as a need for fulfillment and happiness. Only to find out that doesn't deliver. It, either, it's either how found within, or is it just th e dog chasing its tail. And having the mind constantly ellowed to follow the next desire to look for what is not is basically training the mind to never stay here to never be present to never keep the attention, rest, focus in what is, which is really shooting one's own foot because it's too late, as Isabel said, it already is what it is.
So rather than making the most and learning to appreciate this as it is, finding the miraculousness and the gratitude and that is pretty clear and easy. If we get out from the comparing mind, if you start looking around for everyone else, what they have, how much they have more and how much they are better than I am, then what's wrong with right now? And I think we have answers. All psychological suffering has the same cause, so no better or worse version of it ultimately. Yeah, yeah, that's right. Even, yes, the same cause is the sense of dissatisfaction with that what is and whether that's good or bad.
sense of dissatisfaction has attached story that oh yeah all my family got murdered in holocaust or it has the attached story that oh i just missed my train and i will have to wait for 15 minutes for the next one the suffering can be as extreme and it is the dissatisfaction with that which is happening and this comes from the tendency to try and control the reality and that's impossible it appears to be you know it appears the mind will argue for it well this is my job i have to do that i have to keep regulating the blood flow i have to keep managing everybody else in the room so i don't get bullied or i have to show up at work or look after kids that's happening you you �t's happening because it has been programmed into the system the idea that there is a mini person inside who is doing all that and who has to keep pushing themselves to do all that it's just an idea it's just a translation it's an interpretation of what is happening naturally spontaneously already the breathing is happening i am breathing the seeing is happening i am i am i am i am seeing what i seeing is happening now going shopping is happening speaking is happening no i go shopping no i am speaking and now with that idea of i comes the tons of mental projections of what that i is and it is worn as a costume this is me this is who i am suddenly the existence the pure potentiality limits itself to the idea are you the idea pause the thought see who are you without without the idea any idea see if you disappear without any idea because if you don't then clearly you are prior to any idea you are here and then the idea comes no one was here i was born with that sense of separate self or identity it came along later it got picked up along the way with the vocabulary with the words with imitating others using symbolic language and for the great purpose this is fantastic navigational aid there's nothing wrong with that if you see how seamlessly it functions how brilliantly it functions it's nothing wrong it's quite beautiful it's to be you totally fully appreciated for what it is rather than mistaking it for your own identity just again even looking at that incredible show that incredible magic trick of the self of appearing separate self of feeling like i am me it feels real it feels like i am still here it feels like i can still choose my thoughts oh no no maybe no okay i get it i can't choose my thoughts but it still feels like i can choose to act out on my thoughts well but the thought already came pre-charged didn't it so it already came with the decision to follow up with the action or not oh yeah all right but but but but i can still do something now maybe i can't do the seeing or maybe i can't choose to act out on the thoughts if they already charged okay but maybe i can do something else okay i can't do anything but i'm still here there's still a sense of separate self how does it feel what is that sense of separate self because sense of existence is here obviously is undeniably here what makes that sense of existence feel like separate self if not just a concept if not just a mental image a projection sense of existence is spacious is here you can't say it's big small old young nothing can be said about it is just here but the idea that it is limited to the shape and size of the body is an idea without that idea how big are you without the thought how small are you are you male or female without the thought in the direct experience without the thought and mental projection are you human are you dutch or british or polish are you anything at all that you are you can't deny but do you need to assert what you are what are you without the thought and can you do it without the thought or mental projection what are you without the thought what are you in the direct knowing in a direct experience yvonne yvonne yes with a man where who i met on the beach who felt my energy that was the most beautiful part and then he wanted to connect with my mother who was already gone and then i i listened to the music to the music to it but I had nothing to do with it because yeah I don't need an explanation I don't need um I don't need anything about that that's a piece and that is what you're talking about now it's all thought and I don't feel better if she's sorry now for what she had done or whatever that's not not necessary for me just the best part was that he felt my energy and that it was that he was attracted to it but uh the part that came after it when he wanted to connect and um and and also that my father was absent as always I yeah that was good for him that he saw that but I I cannot uh I cannot do anything with it so yeah because I don't feel better when they are sorry now or it's it's useless um and I I and it's not my um my own experience it's secondhand yeah yeah yeah firsthand experience absolutely invaluable even if you experiencing other people making amends or apologizing it is still it is still here it is still happening here without within that consciousness or presence that you are yes you don't need an apologize to feel better or to to go on or to yeah to whatever it's nice that you do it but it's not when you when you when you need it that is another case not another when you need an apologize or yeah yeah whatever yeah anything and everything that you needed is this already here yes if anything is missing it means it's not needed because you're already here so other people coming and apologizing or or making amends or doing whatever is just it's just what arises here but is it needed even the idea of need um is is already presuming that there is something lacking yes yeah yeah there may be you know the immense apology arising there may be appreciation arising or there may be just dismissing arising whatever is arising and answers loved ones that have passed are always with you as the awareness itself yeah yeah energy doesn't go anywhere back to space and space is always here never not here I'm curious I wonder at on the beginning Stephen you actually unmute for a second can you think of anything that you could bring into the mix yeah I hadn't planned to say anything but the things that have been going on in my mind or being youngest it would be new to the meeting show we know ourselves better than anybody else I think so I just talked about it it's when I was a little boy very young I loved the um the Christian teaching talking really young you know three years old something like that four years old went off to sunday school gentle jesus in all this and um and then around about six or seven i found i might have told this story before but i found an ammonite you know a fossil took it home and started talking about it and i was told it was rubbish you know it's just these are things that have just been planted in the earth you know to to confuse people and uh and again you don't you don't decide to think these things but my mind went i can't i can't believe that so then loads of books on fossils and things like that and um it's interesting because i think at that point in a little bit afterwards finding out about the crusades and the um the uh merciless torturing of heretics and things like that um what happened is like uh my mind and this is the term that was it isabel was looking for is throwing the baby out with the bath water you know so and then it went on to and anyway we've all got funny things going on but i not only did i lose the faith in christianity although i thought there was something in it there was also a great fear so whenever i'd pass a church there'd be this fear it's because only because things were said you know so um but i've always had you know a great attraction to faith type people because they seem to have something that i don't you know so um so i thought i just and in in the buddhist thing that i latched on to years ago that is definitely trying to get the balance between investigation and faith because we've you know you have to bob would say you know have a look you know having a look is investigation i mean however lightly you want to put it which doesn't mean you know intellectualize and think about things to to the f degree so you know and i was just thinking about things like that so i'll give you an example of what i think of it it seemed to be excessive faith i went to um um Guyana a few weeks ago and spoke to a friend of mine there.
And he's from African descent. So he was born in Guyana. And they've got one of their own faiths is the Obia religion from Africa. And he'd always had this terrible tummy trouble. So he was telling this story. He'd gone to an Obia man and the Obia man took him down to the beach, drew a circle in the sand. My friend had to strip off and they piled all his clothes up. And the man then proceeded to throw eggs at him. And my friend just kept dodging either side like this, you know, and so none of the eggs hit afterwards, his stomach ache hadn't disappeared. So I was my thinking from the investigative point of view is, well, it doesn't work.
You know, you must see this. He said, No, I kept dodging the eggs, you know. So. No, no change whatsoever. And I used to sometimes I used to lump all faith in stuff into this sort of category. You know, if you can't test it, if you can't have some sort of experiment, we can get in there and dig around with it. Then it's all it's all just mumbo jumbo, really. And but also, over the last few years, six, six years, I helped as my wife's husband, my wife's pastor, who's a Pentecostal Christian, we did the history of Christian theology. And clearly, there's a lot in it, you know, but it's this accretion of, was that right word accretion of stuff layered on top, to try and get to what the source of all this is talking about.
And it seems to me that many, many faiths have, you know, at their core, the the right, the right. The right stuff. And I think it was something was it you can't said it, I think one of the things about having a faith, if the mind is not so it just accepts it can accept it. And the mind does settle down. And because the mind settles down, there's an easier access to whatever is being pointed to, you know. And yet some of us can't do that, for some reason. And it's not that we got great faith in the intellect, it's just the way the things wired.
I would say I've always been more of an investigative sort of character. But does faith... But investigation works in the right way. Like you talked about this, this person you spoke to believe they were the body. What do we really experience ourselves as the body? I certainly don't. But at one time when I first got introduced to me, I thought, Yeah, sorry, I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm sorry. I must be the, I'm the body, you know, when this body dies, that's the end. I have no, no way of knowing that whatsoever. Really? Apart from you can see that when a body dead is buried or is cremated or something like that.
But is that what I really take myself to be, I think, for years, I realised I always took myself to be the mind, if you like, you know, all the thoughts, experiences, the history and every but not particularly the body. this this this beingness or this mind doesn't really feel that different than when it was that little that little um faith type chappy at the age of three you know it really doesn't you know there's clearly there's the views have changed and all that sort of thing but the actual way the thing works sight sound smells taste touches mental events feelings all this sort of stuff that's pretty much the same but um and then we talk but there is nobody who sees there is nobody who hears and so you start looking at it again have a look not investigate with mine have a look and there are times but not times yes if if there was a me then i should be in control so i should be able to look at that lamp and say you just switch off seeing it doesn't work you know um you know there's loads of noise should be able to just switch it off no they're here if there's a healthy ear and there's a sound within range hearing will take place doesn't matter what's going on in the being or whatever you know um and i was thinking also all these things you everybody been talking about today with the mind and the investigation sort of thing it seems to me the best you can get to is a good healthy stoicism you know um it's not so much appreciating it it's life's tough you know but we live on a potato and we'll we'll sit out in the freezing uh stuff and we'll just tough it out you know but um i was reading something about stoicism and that still had brought in the elements of compassion and things like that so it wasn't all just you know the hard men or anything like that um anyway it's always this balance i think between obviously if you if it's all seen clearly then fine but for those that are looking i think it's a gentle balance between investigation and and um and faith or confidence you know i i wouldn't come here if i didn't have confidence that the people who i uh here talking know what they're talking about you know or have some direct experience of it and of course being greedy i want that you know thinking i don't have it already and it was the thing that wants it it's the mind that wants it the thoughts that want it they get the mind out of the way and perhaps it will settle down nicely um yeah but the mind thinks it doesn't have it yeah it's well you were talking that's what the mind that thinks it doesn't have it get them you know but it's also when you latch on i was thinking about things when you were talking about fires you know these people who had fires you know and then they it'd call down and this is what the mind will do well i'm one of seven children seven children two parents and we when we were kids we'd sit around this fire in the front room middle of winter outside there'd be a big bunker of coal which get delivered every year month or so and we'd all be what sat around this thing there'd be a telly on or something and then the fire would start to die down you know down down and it'd get colder and colder and the little bucket of coal was empty so one of us somebody was going to have to go and get some coal somebody could somebody anybody could have done it it's one of these things you know i can't remember how it goes in the end you could feel this tension building up and it like me or somebody else i go oh i'll have to go and do it you know so i storm out and get a bucket of coal you know and life was misery absolute misery and and um clearly it wasn't as bad as i thought but um they say what the mind does you know and then i like i love and then this mind loves the organization i think why don't we we have a rota you know one this there's seven kids all the you know there's seven kids seven days of the week we just get one of them do it on a monday well on a tuesday you know it's simple but you know it went on for years and why don't we never wrote her you know anyway i'm sorry to go on but it's that sort of stuff isn't it really it's um the investigative mind the thinking mind is very good at solving problems you know and uh but it's keeping it in its right place whereas the the lovely faith types many of my friends are these pentecostal christians they're as happy as larry's you know they've got no problems you know they don't get they're not going around going oh i can't believe this you know so it works for them and and they're clearly tapping into the source even though i think what i do now is the thing about faith is i there's lots of faith types it's not so much the faith either what is the specifics when people will hold on to a specific and say this definitely happened so many thousand years ago because it's written in a book you know um you know that may not be may or may not be true but but isn't it the same with us isn't it the same isn't it the same with neanderthals yes and the whole human history is it yeah yeah just another piece of faith just lacking a little bit of that element of love that's it's another religion yeah we could we could have a talk about science the thing i i'm not going to go all about the thing i like about science it does seem to have it's just seem to have you know the ability to um correct its earlier errors you know um but it's still of course but then of course the belief in faith science is if we keep looking hard enough keep investigating we get to the source maybe not and science has already admitted to godel theorem that having the axioms established in their own language proof is never valid true yeah so this old faith is just lacking that love element lock lacking that humility element you know in india they have to thousand gods not because they believe that those thousand gods are all real but because it has been societally it has evolved into uh you know there's plenty of people living there uh the self-organizing universe managed to evolve society to that capacity to bow down in front of values Lakshmi goddess of wealth so bowing down to the values of wealth bowing down to the values of intellect the elephant head whatever the Hanuman or whatever they don't believe that there is a guy with the elephant head who is sitting there in the sky they just have a habit of going down on their knees and putting the head down to the ground in the name of values they open the heart there is love involved in it and what's wrong with a little bit of love well i know some of us find it harder than others i don't know why i'm still i'm still coming along and you know and but how about the night sky you look at the sky and the stars and the sunset for some people heart opening is music or nature for others maybe an idea of Jesus the more love the more happiness yeah anyway i hope you liked twice writing about the faith in the uh investigation it's uh it's an interesting one isn't it you know it is yes i honest i've been at this for i've been at this since i was two so i don't know what's going on but um you know uh we're just we're just keep i don't know only required for the mind to get out of the way that's right that's good enough that i'll i'll take that as a great one yeah because in reality there is no faith required it's evident but yes yes yeah faith in investigation if the mind is present having faith in investigation is absolutely necessary if the mind is still present the the longing will be present which is the love for the truth and the more of the love and devotion towards the truth the lighter the burden of separation i'll have to i'll email you and see if you kindly talk to me privately i don't want to bore people with my little issues i think it's just that i don't think you do but i'll yeah i'll do it i'd be more than happy to catch up privately but i don't think you bore people actually you are a voice for for questions that other people may not know how to word yeah i think it's i think but briefly i think this can happen to a lot of minds or be a way of approaching things especially in the west get very frightened by something early on in life and it's like there's a fear of trust i think i think that's what it is and it's very difficult to crack through that it seems you know i know it's just relaxing and do it and it is true i mean the one i like best when i meditate it or sit sitting quality what's wrong with right now if you don't think about it and when you're talking i can see the mind trying to come in to you know i can actually see that as a folk it's a process a grasping of the mind you know anyway so thanks everyone thank you and thank you for stepping up and bringing it on this is a wonderful wonderful charge loaded topic that deserves really a proper attention because it's it's so much potential in it you know the way the mind is questioning everything is rebelling against everything is rebelling against the established authorities of a church or anything else that too is trusting and it's love it's love of being it's trusting that you can't trust yeah so so it's the the right investigation is the investigation of what is it the experience isn't it what's happening rather than getting caught up in the mind yeah yeah yeah and then and as you said initially you know the mind believing a mind believing that there is something that it needs to get and mind believing that it doesn't have it and and and the truth is it's not a thing so the mind can't have it all not have it it's completely beyond the grasp of the mind because it's not mind is a tool which is attaching symbols to objects and this is not an object so attaching any symbol i have it i don't have it i will have it i will achieve it it doesn't apply yeah because it's still mind it's still mine doing it it's still a movement of mind exactly yeah able to see that being able to see that mind trusting in science distrusting religion finding the science a self-correcting mechanism being superior or better than facing jesus who just loves you or the father who has mansions when you die or whatever the whatever the story is seeing them and comparing them and oh i resonate with this more and with that less this is all within the mind this is all palpable within the mind all known in the awareness that yes this particular body and i'll confess i have never been attracted to organized religions either so i am predominantly head oriented like bob also questioning skeptical and really wanted to just pull it apart and see the proof in the pudding rather than just hypnotize myself into uh into some sort of a belief which is not better or worse yes it's like every expression is absolutely equal and as you say the pentecostals happy as larry i know people who are so in love with jesus that they melt in that love to the point in which they can't see separation anymore they can't experience separation anymore because in love separation collapses yeah it's it is interesting isn't it i think i think the intellect is in that way of so it's like it it much rather doubt and being you know then then then even have the possibility that it might believe in something that is not true you know is that it seems to be that sort of thing anyway i'll stop i'll stop making my comments now yeah and email me by all means i love the conversation and we can do both we can still have the conversations here because there is this old saying that you know there is the jnani path and bhakti path and when you start walking the path of jnana you end up in the pinnacle when you melt in bhakti you in love and appreciation for the miraculousness of life or when you are so this was uh i think bob used to quote uh khabir or was it roomy falling in love with the form i attempt to the formless you know even walking this bhakti path path of absolute surrender and devotion devotion to the guru devotion to the idea devotion to the even to the longing for the enlightenment self or or whatever it is but being in the state of surrender and devotion the mind steps down of the way it melts and the truth is revealed because when the mind is not the truth is clear and obvious it's only the mind that avails it that creates the sense of separation i'm here truth is out there i don't know what it is i have to get it not now later future past when the mind is not here i am so whether the mind gets out of the way through melting you .
devotion and the glimpse of wow and then the mind reestablishes itself and continues the singing songs of devotions and praying and doing prostrations who cares they're equal there is no better or worse but yes particular body will prefer oranges to grapefruits and rap music to classical music and ultimately that's all just just the show forné you so cast it on the screen of consciousness which doesn't mind. but yes it is good to know your own mind to know that in this particular machine the attraction is rather to deep investigation which uses the intellect to pull down and to discard all the certainties all the assumptions and it can be done and you're doing really really well here you know if if you on well you know if you hear you know if you wear that vartana Asundi thing and you're doing it well use theJa you know if if you weren't doing really really well you wouldn't show up and if you would you would be gone in five minutes you'd never last a meeting so so that's that i think we have answers not having faith is faith in nothing yay and then we have just a quick uh faith gets replaced with what's evidence says and loved ones that have passed oh yes and sandra says it's not boring at all i agree thank you sandra and yvonne says nothing wrong with the mind coming into mind is just thoughts don't trust the mind exactly and mind is a miracle miraculous expression of that incredible essence uh appearing as everything and um answers i guess you could say not knowing what you are is faith in nothing and yvonne says you can you can you can never see your own eyes too no faith required who would have faith you are that and yvonne also says how can you have faith in something that doesn't exist but is the existence itself and birut a word about daylight saving adjustment in australia oh thank you thank you birut and we are over time but yes we have daylight saving in australia so next week uh you guys one hour earlier so if you are uh steven if you are 10 30 that will be 9 30 and yvonne and isabel if you are 11 30 then it will be 10 30 next week i will update it on the website but i also have and i can't see you with us today either a beautiful man from america who is going to modernize the website a little bit so i will not have to manually update all those things uh but as of now thank you thank you for the reminder next week we're gonna be an hour earlier and thank you everyone for hanging out and lots of love thank you all bye-bye