This transcript was made by speech-recognition software, so names and some words may be misheard. The recording is the original: watch on Facebook.
How about you, Kimo? Haven't seen you in a while. I can't. Yeah, I can say a few things. Wonderful. Has everyone come through already? Yeah, this one is going to be direct based on things that I hear at other get-togethers and obviously the U.S. meeting that we have, the Sailor Bob meeting. So one thing that we have in spirituality, which is kind of hard to get away from, even in the Sailor Bob realm where Bob tries to be as clear as possible, but whenever you get a group together, you know, in a way there's a catering to the wants and desires of spirituality. Spiritual aspirants.
Even though this isn't about a spiritual aspirant gaining knowledge or a spiritual aspirant becoming free. And you may hear that and you might say, what? But Nisargadatta became free. You know, he was with Siddhar Meshwar and he was told to stay with the I.M. And after three years, he saw this. And Bob, Bob definitely had a life in disarray. He went over and found out that he was not the body, not the mind. And, you know, he was beyond the need for further help after that. John Wheeler, same thing, went to see Bob, got all his questions answered after mulling around, you know, for decades with this stuff.
Gilbert as well. Struggled with it. He was a great guy. He was a great guy. Struggled with this. Read about it. Listened to Bob. Finally, it clicked. And then he wondered, why aren't my other friends who are coming just as much as me understanding this stuff? Why are they asking the same questions? Why don't they get it? And why does Bob just let people expound on this stuff who aren't clear? Or why aren't they corrected? Why are they just let to share this stuff? The thing is, is nobody understands this stuff. Nobody gets it. It's not like so. So Bob is very clear when he says you're already that and also that this this is about being, not becoming, and the direct message is that that that's the entire message this thing about you were already that is the entire.
message. What you come to seek, what you come to find out is all about becoming. It's all about a story. Whether you come to see Sailor Bob or not, whether you come to a meeting has no bearing on our true nature at all. What's being found out? What's appearing? What's understood? I understand it. I get it. I'm no longer seeking. I'm free. So what? Who are we talking about? Seriously? I used to love this drawing that this now defunct website used to have about awareness, about where the penny dropped for this guy on, I can't remember what it was called, but this guy, he's like, oh my gosh, it's so simple.
You know, the presence of awareness that Bob points to. That's all that we're talking about here. And there's no one to get it. So he had this graph about the state of our true nature before, before the spiritual path, while we're struggling on the spiritual path. And after being so-called enlightened, it's kind of like a strength meter of awareness. And it was just a straight line. On 100 percent. In other words, it matters not. And you get these meetings all the time. Even after Bob will do the spiel about you're already that. Someone will be grinding, gnashing their teeth and then to be helpful, you know just to, you know, you know, You've got someone struggling in front of you, so you say, you have to do the investigation.
I can't do it for you. I can only point. Well, yeah, you can only point, but the idea isn't that I'm pointing for you to get this. There's no separation here where there's a ringleader who gets this and lieutenants who get this, and we're trying to coach other people through questions to also understand this. There's no separate person here who gains an understanding or who loses the idea that they're separate. I know that can come as a shock. It's like I could be just totally... cut off right there, because that's not going to make sense to any spiritual aspirant, and it's not going to make sense to 95% of Sailor Bob attendees.
So it's like, why do we come? You know, the why. Why? We need a verbal explanation for everything. There's a joy in sharing this stuff. You know why? Because this is exactly how Bob... describes it. That it's just being. I had a meeting just this last night, and it's like we had a fellow, all these well-meaning fellows about, yeah, you know, I did all the search. I did the investigation. I didn't want a spiritual bypass. Separate thing there. We're not talking about self-improvement for the person. And someone else with... I need to stay open. You know, a lot of times I forget to stay open and just be this awareness.
You know, it's like I'm often catching myself feeling cut off and not allowing myself to be my open, true nature. What? Who the heck is stopping the floodgates of awareness? Doesn't make any sense. It is. Here's the thing. There's nothing that you need to do to be aware. There's nothing you can do to be aware. The you is an idea. There's nothing you need to do to be aware. There's nothing you need to do to maintain awareness. And the wonderful thing is there's nothing where you can lose awareness. There's no way awareness can disappear. Because it never appears. It's not a thing. It just is.
It's unassailable. It's perfection itself. And getting back to lieutenants. John Wheeler used to say, you can kind of see a joy and easiness in your daily life and a lack of the spiritual search. Doesn't mean you never read anything again. You never come to meetings. Because it's a joy to share this stuff. And, you know, Gilbert used to say that if you're fooling yourself that you think you got this when the crap hits the fan, you're going to know it's not going to have any any sort of benefit. Not that there's ever a benefit for anyone. But it seems like there is. The great thing about Bob's teaching is that it's non-dependent on life circumstances.
In fact, when life circumstances are easy, any understanding is easy. But when life circumstances are hard, this recognition almost becomes stronger because it becomes more obvious. And the events are just unfolding on their own. This is all being held in this benign, unchangeable, totally pure, non-separation. Nothing can ever be separate from this. Nothing can ever be other than this. But yet we hear Bob. We hear that it's not about the coming. And all our questions are about the coming. And one of Gilbert's things is and it's and it's very common to, you know, people just people just coming to meetings with kind of a self-help mindset.
They don't want to give up their identity. They just want a few pointers to to feel good about this stuff and kind of be a me who gets this stuff. Yeah. As opposed to someone who just comes in there, they thirst for this stuff. It's like, okay, I'm ready to do the investigation. I'm serious about this stuff. You know, I'm ready to throw away any of my preconceived notions and concepts. I'm going to investigate them all. Throw them all away and see what's really here. Both of those are still the me. I'm ready to throw them all away. I'm ready to throw away all my stuff and see what this really is.
Or I'm ready to just be a person and understand this. I'm ready to become a non person as a person. One sounds more convoluted and ridiculous, but but they're both cut from the same ilk. They're both about becoming either. I want to be spiritually anesthetized by understanding more concepts and maybe adding it to my best. Of all the places I've spent two or $3,000 in or wasted three weeks or a month sitting with someone. And the other two, I'm ready to devote all my thing. I mean, there's a there's a I guess you could say there's an exception to that. If it becomes a Bhakti thing where it's just like.
I suppose. Some of the stories of Saints where it's like, hey, I, you know, they felt like they were literally no longer there. Like God, make me an instrument of your peace. And and that's one way for there to be like, okay, it's kind of like another side door for there being no doer. You know, God is just the doer type thing. There's no longer me. I'm just charitable. I'm just giving. I'm there. There's no. There's just the activity of God doing its thing. Sure, granted, but there aren't too many people who are ready to do to do that. Even the idea of I'm just doing this and I'm ready to do whatever my Guru says.
But that's still like they think they're following a recipe where they're either going to drop away. Or that that something is going to click some understanding. But again, the graph. Presence of awareness prior to even hearing about enlightenment. Graph of awareness in the search, gaining and losing the understanding. Being a so-called teacher doesn't matter. This is the case. There's nothing more to find. Every time you want to say like, oh, gosh, I wonder. I wonder what I'm trying to remember what Bob said about this or what's the one thing we brought up at the last meeting a couple days ago was some guy brought a book and he and he kind of wanted more clarification.
So these are things that Nisargadatta had an answer for. Like, what is. I don't know what like what is death or what is what is the I am type thing? What are we focusing? I forget the questions. But it's interesting to know because this is our lineage. You know what? What Nisargadatta said? What Bob said is important just from a curiosity standpoint. But from a. That thing of like if this person just closed the book and said, okay, I don't have any other questions. You know, like if he stopped himself short, I wouldn't have said, oh, wait, I want to know what Nisargadatta said. My freedom is dependent on what Nisargadatta.
What did he say to what is death? I need to know that. You know, I'm coming to these meetings to get somewhere. I'm coming to these meetings to become more. Stop. Stop. Your BS meter needs to come up as soon as anyone is presenting themselves as I got this. The penny dropped. Or even being humble. Okay. I my cup is empty. I'm ready for it to be filled with your information. That's going to help me do the investigation. So I have a question. So let's say you're a sailor Bob. And you're a sailor. Of course, there's a self-help aspect to it. If you're sailor, Bob, John wheeler.
Someone's sitting in front of you. Floundering. You know, it's debatable whether they need mental help. They're very uneasy. You know, there, there are things you do out of compassion to ease that. paranoid or very neurotic, and now they're not, it doesn't mean that the understanding somehow strengthened or it clicked. It was always so. You just had someone who's not acting out anymore. Someone who's not acting out anymore, someone who's not drinking anymore, someone who's at peace. I mean, those are tangible benefits in any kind of self-help regime. But when you get right to the core of this, it's exactly what Bob said. And where it leaves you is kind of the laughable tongue-of-cheek thing that there's nothing to do.
You have these folks who laugh at radical nonsense, non-duality, or neo-advitus, saying like, okay, there's no doer, so there's nothing for me to do. And it's just rife with spiritual bypassing. Find me this person who's spiritually bypassing. Find me the person who does all the work, visits Bob, goes to the psychiatrist, and comes out the other end more aware. Show him to me. Show me the person who does all the work, visits Bob, goes to the psychiatrist, and comes out the other end more aware. Show him to me. And I'll be the one who has the understanding who's no longer searching anymore that's more aware.
And I'll end with one of Bob's pointers. I really love his Connecticut speech from 2004 that Kat put on the, it's called something like Sailor Bob at Connecticut 2004. He's speaking in a library. One of the things he goes over is, how proving that there's nothing that you're doing to make awareness be, that it's a fact. And he goes over slightly seeing and hearing, and then talks a tiny bit about feeling. Doesn't talk about taste or smell. But the normal thing is, I see this object across the room, or I hear this, and we talk about the seeing stick. Both Bob and Gilbert have talked about the seeing stick.
There's just the seeing. There can't be a seer or a seen without the seeing. And definitely the closed eye experiment, that anything like I hear this or I hear that, it becomes very pure as far as there's just hearing. If you come to enough of these meetings, you can see that there's just hearing. Just seeing. It definitely clicks. And it's like, whoa, what Bob is saying is true. But then the big thing is, you have the five gates, the non-dual senses, which don't feel dual until you add thought. But thought is the same way. There's no idea. The thinker is just another concept. All there is is thinking.
But we take the thinker as something separate that's granted. Okay, there's just the seeing. There's just the hearing. But I'm thinking, right? It's just happening automatically for me. No, it's not happening automatically for you. There isn't a you except for a concept. And you have to look at it. You have to look at every pointer and see it for your... I'm doing the same tune. You have to see it for yourself. But we had a colleague called Areti from a couple decades ago, and she asked Bob so many questions. And her depth of sharing this stuff, I think, was clearer than me at the time.
Not that there can be a comparison. Like, who cares? You know, the sandbox fights of Gilbert, the clarity of John, you know, me rambling around. It doesn't matter. But one of her keystone pointers that she came up with originally was, how do I know that I'm thinking? And I was always ambivalent about that for good reason. I thought her pointer was wonderful. How do I know that I'm thinking? Because that points directly to the true nature that's already here that doesn't need to be produced, that's more subtle than thought. How do I know that I'm thinking shows that there's a presence beyond, more finer, providing the substratum to everything that's appearing.
Beautiful pointer in that regard. But the other part that was always throwing off was, how do I know? How do I know I'm thinking? How do I know I'm thinking? I don't know that I'm thinking. I do not know that I'm thinking. Even though I do know that I'm thinking in the regular parlance of things, I don't know that I'm thinking and neither do you. Thinking is just appearing. And we say you don't choose your thoughts, and you don't, but it's kind of a sleight of hand. It plays into the whole market of, free will, determinism, Robert Sapolsky, you know, that there's nothing you're doing to choose things.
Well, that's true, but it's a straw man argument because there is no you. So, and anything you want to say about how you're not the chooser, you're not the thinker, you're not choosing your thoughts, you're not choosing your actions is true. But it's truer from a deeper standpoint because there isn't a you to have free will or for determinism to take over you. Neither one is true. There just isn't one. But it's not nihilism. It's not depression. It's a beautiful presence of awareness that was here before everything, before any kind of AA meeting, before meeting, you know, met his first wife, before meeting Kat. We can point at improvements for the human, but that's not what we're talking about.
We're not talking about making money from this. We can talk about being, you know, there's no more psychological trouble, but we don't need to die on that hill. The purity is already there. The results, the results will vary. There's no one. There's no one choosing those results. Okay, I came to enough meetings. Now my life has changed this way. Okay, those are great stories, but they're stories. Tell me about how your true nature changed. I don't care how Gilbert changed. I don't care how Bob changed. I don't care how holy Nasar Gaddafi seemed or was or, you know, or maybe at 10 accounts on how wonderful the message was.
Doesn't matter that that's a that's a sleight of hand. We're waving personal mastery. We're waving the hand of personal mastery and pointing to that while also pointing to what doesn't need any improvement at the same time. And that's where folks say they're spiritual bypassing, not good enough just to be present and aware. You also have to show the finished product. I bring up the Sandbach aspect of Gilbert. I used to, but I rarely do anymore because I didn't like how he was talked to at one of the early meetings, one of the Tuesday-Thursday meetings he came to. It was way over the top when I heard that, how he was approached.
It's too much. I welcome Gilbert, anybody who wants to share about this stuff, as long as it doesn't become too contentious, because then it's not fun anymore. It's just not fun anymore. But you have to see what Bob is pointing at, whether your questions are, coming from a place of true seeking, coming from a place of true, I want to learn this stuff, or whether you're holding on to being a person. It matters not, because there's not anything to get. Before your first Sailor Bob meeting, you already are what Sailor Bob is pointing to. And that was one of, you know, Gilbert, you know, you give enough shots, you get some great ones in there.
Give someone enough shots, the hoop, there's going to be resonance. One of the, you know, nice things that he said, which we all know, or maybe we don't, is not only is you already are what you're seeking, but you can't, one of the things Nisar Gaddafi said is, don't refuse to be what you're not. Doesn't matter if you refuse, to be what you're not. Or you refuse to be what you are. Because you can't not be what you are. Even if you think you're a person wailing and gnashing your teeth, even if your pointers are crap, even if your pointers don't resonate with anybody, it's still this undivided in usity.
It's still just this presence presence of awareness. Oh, you have, seen this yet. You're lost. I can tell by the way you're speaking that this never resonated with you. What kind of crap is that? Seriously, what kind of crap is that? It never resonated with you because I can tell by the way you're talking. There's just this, presence awareness. Argue with that. Argue with the fact that I am. Argue with the fact that I am awareness. The only way to argue with it is the becoming, the whole spiritual bypass. I did it. Look at my life. I'm no longer drinking anymore. I'm treating my family well.
I must have gotten it. Everybody's clapping. I'm clapping and bowing down when I pass by. I got it. You can't get it. Because the person's a concept. It's never been aware. Never could be aware. It's one with the intellect and the idea of me is one with it because it's in the fire of awareness. Bob used to say all the time, put the log in the fire and it will take on the atmosphere. The heated log, the heated chemo, who thinks he knows this? The heated chemo, who thinks there's nothing to do? The heated chemo, who's telling you there's nothing to do? I'm not telling you there's nothing to do.
It's even more pure than that. There's not just nothing to do. There's doing happening, but it doesn't matter what's being done at all. It doesn't matter whether you do the investigation. I challenge anyone to tell me that they did the investigation and there was an improvement in their true nature. You're lying if you say that's the case. L-Y-I-N-G, you're lying. This isn't about becoming in any shape or form. It's about what is. And I'll land there. Thank you. That's lovely. And I just wanted to quickly say welcome. We have a couple of new names. Welcome Joel and CL into our little group. And as Kimo beautifully highlighted, there are people who tend to criticize the fact that we allow everyone here to express that one life, one essence.
We don't talk about there is no separation. We can't discuss the real, the real, and the real. We just talk about there is no separation. We kind of demonstrated if life is moving through anyone and everyone as that and it's moving them to open the mouth and and express the awareness of presence. Well, that's what's happening. There's no one there allowing not allowing life is moving. That's what's happening. And the basic predicament. And the first and Kimo highlighted that beautifully as well. First and the last word that the message has to anyone. everyone is you already are you know that you are anyone who doesn't know that they are so there's everyone who know that they are therefore everyone is eligible to actually express it just land in that certainty of existence and see from that awareness of existence how it expresses itself and yes some there they were situations where people would say yes but i've got it and you don't or they got it and they don't and they should be and they shouldn't be there's two life expressing through the confused mind and mind is always confused mind is always dualistic there is no one who has the mind who expresses in any other way than through duality that's just how the mind functions you so the mind is always a veil is always a translation the pure seeing into seer and the pure thinking into i and the thought the pure experiencing into the experiencer and the experienced that is the translation but the direct experience the immediate experience is just this just this if this contains the dream about yesterday and the dream about tomorrow and the dream of self-help growth growth growth growth growth becoming or whatever it is well that's just the part of the appearance but if you weren't already present and aware and existent and aware of that existence this dream this confusion couldn't have shown up and i see you yvonne would you like to contribute yes um yeah it was very beautiful what the king was said and um yeah the only thing you can really say is i am dead that i am full stop um yeah it was very beautiful what the king was said and um yeah the only thing you can really say is i am dead that i am full stop And the question that he said from why are we then in the Zoom or why are we here?
We are not here in the Zoom, we are just here and not, we are just everywhere. And this is how it appears that we show up here. And that is not one of my doing or your doing. It's just happening, this togetherness here. It's just yeah, all the questions. A child does not ask why, when he makes a beautiful sandcastle on the beach and then the flood comes, everything destroys and he does not ask why for what was it for, why did I do that? Was it useless? It's just playing and sharing and enjoying this thing. This network. This network. This network. This network. It's just not!
I am just telling you how I say that. nothing, this nothingness, this what we share, the sharing. So it is for nothing, but it's just for the joy of it, to enjoy it, to be it, to fill in the blank, you know what I mean. Yeah, beautiful. Thank you. And Carlos says, hi Kat, managed to join in a few minutes late. Thanks, Carlos. So welcome. Welcome, Carlos. Hope you're gonna enjoy it. And if you ever at any point wants to unmute and say hi, or say something or ask question, and that applies to everyone, just raise the hand or unmute if you don't know how to raise the hand.
Anyone is most welcome to open up and ask question, direct the investigation, or build up or reflect. Is this a shared space? Yes, it is. So we are here in a Zoom group, where we actually just bask in the sunlight of the Spirit, as they say, in the realization that we are already conscious, like Yvonne says, Oh, why are we here? Defend yourself now. You're still seeking, you're wrong. You shouldn't be seeking. There is no you to seek. What a joke. We are already here. But are we here in a Zoom group? Are we here? No, we are here full stop. The Zoom group is happening inside the awareness.
I am here. Within me, the world appears, the Zoom appears, the words appear, everything that is appearing is appearing within the consciousness. When I go to sleep at night, different dream appears, but it still appears here in consciousness. If the memory appears, it still appears here in consciousness. So there is no... Of course, if the understanding happens, oh, I'm still here because I like to share, or because I'm still seeking, or no, because I want to stabilize, or no, because I want to get better. Why? Because. Why? Because. Things happen full stop. This is a spontaneous unfolding. If you find yourself washing your hands, that's what's happening.
The mind invited to justify and tell a story will never shut up. How about enjoying the moment as it is, enjoying the freshness and uniqueness of each moment as it shows up wherever you are? And if the story is part of it, well, again, enjoying that story too, from the perspective of freedom, from the point in which, ah, okay, this is arising. The story is arising. I had a few calls this morning, and some of them were like, you know, why, why is, is the non duality often blended or mixed with the ideas that, you know, I got it, I didn't get it. Or you right, I'm wrong.
Or those guys, you know, the so-called teachers constantly fighting and arguing with each other. You didn't get it. I got it. Wow. Or even there was a quotation that I had on the first call from a book where, I think it was Jed McKenna, he said, If you are still forgetting, and you're not there yet, and now unpack it, explain it. What you? Not where? So this is where, you know, the idea that, oh, I've written a book, so I get it. I'm the authority. And whatever I say is going to be a final truth. And that's why I salute to you, Kimo, for even actually bringing up where Nisargadatta falls off the razor's edge, or Ramana Maharshi is talking absolute nonsense.
Talking happens, but there is no speaker behind. It's just life. Expressing, singing the melody through this particular flute and playing it. There's no one there doing any of it. So why would Jed McKenna come up with the nonsense? Oh, if forgetting happens, if I'm still forgetting, or you're still forgetting, then you're not there yet. That which forgets and remembers is the mind. You're not your mind. You are always here. You are. Aware of the mind forgetting and not forgetting. Who cares about the mind forgetting? Who is to be where? Become what? Why would he say that? Why do we need another story? Why would he say that?
Again, there is the spiritually bypassed sort of saying that, you know, there is only speaking, teaching always to oneself. So perhaps he was reminding himself, you're not there. No. The one who says you're not there, absolutely will never, ever, ever get it. Nisargadatta didn't get it. Bob didn't get it. I, Kimo, Dean, Yvonne, no one gets it. There's nothing to get, and there's no one to get anything. So get it out of the way. Why would some people be allowed to speak? What a joke. I know some people. It's just, what's happening? Isabel, would you like to unmute? Yes. Not knowing that book, that writer.
It's also nice to remember yourself. Sometimes you read things in books from the inspirators. They're speaking to the one person. But coming from a different question than maybe you as a reader. And I must say, finally, when I speak here for myself, for you, it's very important, and after all that reading that we know, we've been reading and doing, look for yourself. Take a point that really hits you, that really helps you, really resonates. And that is really so helpful. Trust on your own. Or you say it like something like that. But for here, was it really the point of the now? The now was really a flabbergasting moment.
Wow. There's only now. Only now. Only now. I'm kind of bummed about it. I didn't see it before. And you know, the now is not infinity. The now is, how do you say it in English? Infinite. The now is infinite. It's open. It's fresh. It's ever new. It's beautiful. Unaltered. Uncorrected. Lover. Something else. And you know, the now is so to see, that is only now. And then you can, this beautiful mind, shall we call it, it can take a picture from your model. Yes, now. And maybe it's taking a lot of pain from the back. Yes, it is now. and saying, oh, tomorrow I go to my girlfriend and I'm going to dance.
Yes, it is now. And then you see this now is so open. This body is appearing here with the voice. It's not a thought. And the now is, our awareness is now. It cannot hurt. It has no meaning. It has no opinion. I didn't say, oh, I don't want to see this thing as, oh, I don't like the people here. I love the people here. You know, it's all what's happening in the thinking. And then it's the big surprise. You never choose the thinking. I hope also mentioned, when you are the thoughts, when you really are the thoughts, why you're not saying, I'll be happy forever.
And it's happening now. The thoughts are coming. And you know, it is not an awareness for here. No, it is one awareness for everyone, for everybody, for every bird, for every plant, for every whatever it is. And now you can say, yeah, but I don't know what Kat's thinking. No, sure. Of course Kat had another outbreak here and another story when she was young and another story, another dance. And I feel like I'm in a different place. I feel like I'm in a different place. I feel like I'm in a different place. I feel like I'm in a different place. I feel like I'm in a different place.
And I feel like I'm in a different place. That's the story. But really important is the now. The now is so bringing back like both of us thought. Start with the fact that you already are. That's such a great. Oh, maybe you can say for yourself, I am that I am. say it another, I am. And that is already that open in the moments. Everything surprisingly appearing seemingly and that's such a great gift. And I know that some people say to me, how that person says, stay with I am. And I must say there is no choice of that, but that is really that. That you recognize yourself as say your own.
I am who I am. And at the heart of everyone then there is only one earth and there is only one moment. And sometimes the love is hope, but I mean the love with no opposites. The love has no choice. Whatever happening, happening, it's in you. It's in you, the soul, the call of the sun. And again, I'm not gonna give it a name because we don't know what it is. It's empty in itself, but there's a beauty that appears. And then I can bring my tea, and then it's also very nice to see, you know, you drink tea, you drink coffee, you drink beer, you drink whiskey, you drink wine.
It's all water, you know? That's also so good to see, it's all water. And then you can see here in this, it is all the essence that we can know, that we can be here. And I give the voice to Jenny. Thank you for sharing, Kimo, and yeah, thank you. Yeah, thank you, Isabel. Jenny, would you like to unmute? Yes, hold on, I'm gonna find all the thingies here. Let me see, here I am again. Hi, all. Ah, hmm. The word identification popped up into my head. And I feel that that is really one of the key words, if there is such a thing as a key word.
Where does my identification lie? Is it that I identify with my thoughts, with my feelings, with my, with my story, with my thoughts, with anything that moves in, in my world? Or is my identification almost, the word nonexistent wants to come. Because there, you cannot really identify with isness because there is nobody else. There is nobody who can identify with isness. And when I listened to Kimo, what came to me was that, yes, all these so-called spiritual search and all self-help and everything, it does not affect the isness. It does not affect life itself. It does not affect the essence. Yet what's undeniable is that it does affect what we call the human experience.
It may change the storyline of the movie. And I feel that there's nothing wrong with the longing that is existent in human, in the human experience to change that storyline. I don't feel that it's wrong or something bad. If somebody who is stuck in the identification with the human experience and with suffering and with the storyline, that there's life is moving the entity to, into other waters. That just happens. And there's, it just is. And it's whether good nor bad, it just happens, you know? And even though we always in non-duality point to the fact that there is no person, try to find the person, go and look for the eye, can you find it somewhere?
And we point out that everything is constantly changing. Therefore, nothing is to be found. That is a fact, yes. And at the same time, the simultaneously truth can co-exist, the so-called truth, that the human experience may be perceived differently from before the exploration, before the self-inquiry, before the looking into whatever. The essence, yes, it hasn't been. The essence is just there. Nothing has been there all the time and will be there all the time. And is there before the story, after the story, while the story is going on? I just want to embrace all of life. I want to embrace also the person who is seeking, the believed person who is seeking, the one who believes that they have gotten it, the one who, also believes that they have found it, the one who is seeking something, that is the only being.
So, when I think about life, I think about how I'm a human being. What is life, what is a human being? What is a human being? And I can't do it without knowing what is the human being. Or can I also be a human being without knowing what is the human being that I am? The human being is just an object, a non-human object. Well, see if you've gotten it when the shit hits the fan. Well, even if there's nothing to get, it can be differently. The shit hits the fan differently. I mean, there can be peace even when the shit hits the fan. The isness of the shit hitting the fan is as much the isness as when you sit and smell the roses.
And it's just the absence of labeling things as good or bad, up or down, got it, didn't get, haven't got it. The absence of labeling, the just the being, the isness of the moment, that is where some peace is to be found. If there even is such a thing as peace, that again is a label. So anyhow, that's what came out of this mouth in regards to the topic of identification. We can be here again. Yeah, good to have you here and good to see you and good to hear you. Yeah, the identification. See, that's a beautiful sort of an angle, you know, even when the labeling is happening, but it isn't taken on board by anyone.
Yeah. If it doesn't stick, you know, the labels, judgments, ideas, thoughts, associations, preferences, dreams, manifestation, all of it is just appearing within the field of consciousness. But there is no me to believe it. Just fleeting appearances passing through the through the canvas or through the blank screen. And no one stops like clouds in the sky. They not stitch to the sky. So the idea, look at her, she's fat. Okay. The thought came up. Did I think it? Do I take credit for it? Or do they push? Do I push it away? Is it right? Is it wrong? Even if the mental constructs go over the thought that is arising, those mental constructs, those somersaults of the mind, they are just another arising.
The two arise. And then they are rising in a consciousness. Which? Which is free and welcoming for any arising. Doesn't give a shit whether what arises is saintly or is it whether it smells like rose or shit hitting the fan. It's just arising is what arising and that knowingness or witnessing presence that is underneath the space like awareness, the sky on which the clouds, pretty clouds or ugly clouds are arising. It doesn't even have a space. It doesn't have a saying. You can't even say whether it is or it isn't because it knows its own existence only through the reflection in consciousness as consciousness in the duality.
But again, who cares if there is no holding on to even if there is a holding on to, but the holding on to is just an arising as well. Even if there is a defensiveness of holding on to, but this is also recognized as the arising itself. And what if? And what if? And what if? The moment the holding onto and the defending and arising becomes extremely personal and it causes a lot of suffering and the mind holds and choose and choose and choose. Again, I had this conversation that look, you know, I got really angry. I shouldn't be that angry. I shouldn't feel that angry.
You know, when you look at all the saints and all the enlightened people, they have overcame their afflictions. They human afflictions. Nice. I got out and quit smoking, but okay. Okay. Let's exclude him. Others have overcome. They don't feel angry anymore and I do. So, maybe, and all the narrative coming around it, by the way, actually, I have a quote of that. So that is really funny. Uh, anger is arising. I'll just finish that 1 sentence. Anger is arising and then the moment when the anger is arising is like an eruption of a volcano. It just arises. Spontaneously. There is just roaring energy appearing just like a roaring lion.
That's what arises in this point. There usually is no suffering, no psychological suffering. The energy is centralized in that outburst. There is no yapping commentary because the whole power is into. So there is no separation. There is no identity. There is. Just. Just that weather coming through. No problem at all. No thinking at all. Like a bull charging red blanket. Then the volcano stops. The angers dissipates or the situation gets resolved. And this moment of is no longer here. Is a past is gone. Is. Dead. That's when usually the chewing mind comes and oh, I shouldn't have felt that. I shouldn't have said that. I shouldn't have exploded.
I shouldn't have. Oh, now I'm going to be. I'm going to need to make a man's. I'm going to need to apologize. Now the mind steps in and constructs the identity of me who had the power over a situation who had the control and it lost it. And now what am I going to do now? I'm feeling guilty. I'm feeling shame. I'm feeling sorry for myself or I'm feeling my anger was justified. They shouldn't have said it. They shouldn't have done it. Now I'm going to work myself up to another outbursts. All that. Now, when the energy is down and the mind takes over and start constructing the narrative of narrative on me and my anger on me.
And that person who caused it or that situation that caused it. Now the psychological suffering. Now the sense of separation is constructed and it appears real. Five minutes ago, it was just one. But now it isn't there anymore. And now there is an imagination overlooking, ignoring the freshness of the moment, the shakiness of the body, perhaps. Because the mind is narrating and constructing what should or shouldn't have what whatever the story is. Suffering starts now, not in the moment when you are about to crash into the tree and you are dodging the pedestrian moving through and the body is in a state of alert and it's the whole centralized attention.
The focus like an eagle flying and diving for a mouse. No issues. No separation. No problem. No. No. No. No. And it's all in the narrative. It comes later and This is when the discomfort. This is when the unnecessary. Psychological suffering sets in this is when the red light could start flashing or the bell could start ringing. Hello. Wake up. This is unnecessary. Recognize this is an autopilot running to establish your inner self. establish the sense of agency which is just an appearance on the screen this is what's happening and when you watch this as the happening wow what an incredible convincing show but now this is an appearance this is not the reality anymore so the psychological suffering goes down but when Nisargadatta and smoking cigarettes mentioned itself just now I actually remembered also Yvonne when she was saying and you know what this is just beautiful how many of us is here and how many colorful accents present themselves and the pronunciations and I could see that there was I don't even know how to spell shabang Yvonne says I love all of the whole shabang I don't even know how to spell it either but all the all that colorful accents prompted me to actually highlight when Yvonne was saying I am already dead Nisargadatta says you are already dead and I have I know you were saying you are already that but English language is funny sometimes you spell that and then the next moment the ah sounds like eh why don't you spell i am like you are already that why do you say that but not am so i am dead i am dead that's how it sounded and it was really cute because there was the the quote that i found of nisargadatta some time ago as something that i've posted on facebook 10 or 11 years ago and it is exactly on that someone asked nisargadatta how dare how come you still smoking cigarettes you know better now why don't you quit and nisargadatta says i left behind my human nature to look after itself until its destiny is exhausted in in other words i don't give a that i'm killing myself who cares i left my human nature until its destiny is exhausted occasionally an old habit old reaction emotional or mental happens in the mind sure the volcano erupts of course just like in every other creature in every other animal but it is at once at once noticed and discarded so the narrative doesn't follow there is no ownership there is no me being angry it's just after all as a person is burdened with a person one is exposed to its idiosyncrasies and habits so the questioner says now are you not afraid of death death and nisargadatta says i am dead already he doesn't say i am that already he says i am dead already in what sense says the questioner and he says i am double dead not only i'm dead to my body but to my mind too and this is in chapter 13 of i am that i am that i am dead and sandra would you like to unmute yeah i'm in the forest um hey hi um yeah you were talking about anger and yeah it's something that happens uh to me a lot and like my thing and yeah um yeah you start talking and like some answers came to the talking uh and i see like what happens here is uh you know i already talked to you about the kids and and there's a lot of noise a lot of intensity yelling and for example these days it was a lot of storms here and rain so we had to be at home together it's a small house and at some point you know the anger starts to arise and it's it's i i don't really get how it works because sometimes it feels like first the thinking is coming and like blaming them and then after that the explosion or sometimes the explosive but when the explosion comes before that I already felt exhausted or something like this you know but some of the days I can be in this silence we we are or whatever and The noise is outside and it's not getting in so I don't really get how it works it feels like there's nothing to do about it because Yeah, there's no one here to do anything about it And I don't feel I don't feel guilty after that But the contraction is so strong so so much of a strong that I feel really really uncomfortable And I I tell them I don't want to see you now.
I don't see you now. Just leave me alone and Then they feel like that. Well, you know this Things that happen and It can happen to with other people that happen with it's happening with the kids because I live with them and their kids, you know this being sent intensively is massive massive and here in the Latin world being sensitive is more Thank you There's a lot of temper here. I want to fire everywhere I Yeah, so sometimes it's like you say, you know explosion camps and Maybe some thinking and then it goes it passes away like a storm, but sometimes It explains, you know and and that's what I feel like super annoying And it's yeah being honest.
I don't want it here You know, I want this home to pass away you imagine being under the stone for you know two days or 14 hours, it's really annoying and Yeah, that's that's my point yeah, I don't really get how sometimes it passes and It goes away and some other times It's like the body Holds the anger and don't Doesn't allow it to me. No, it's really weird It's just this Yeah, and you can't control it and the amount of factors which contribute to the how long the anger is stay is absolutely infinite every leave on every tree your thyroid hormones your estrogen level your breakfast and nutrition in it your childhood conditioning your mother's childhood conditioning 10,000 things Contribute to the fact how long the anger is gonna last this time Forget it.
Don't try to work it out sometimes this in this dynamic of self organizing universe this comfort is prolonged because there is no other way this system is gonna update its own responses sometimes even beating oneself up is again the mechanism which upgrades the processor to start Processing the information in more adventurous or different way So it learns it it it it is a machine It is a biological machine which constantly does its best for survival Sometimes it's best isn't optimal But it keeps learning and it keeps doing and it's nothing the one thing that you can do as your own true nature which is space is just be Do nothing understand nothing work out in the mind nothing Just be the presence be the cognizing emptiness, which is the non doing which is the Relax a little bit and see how the self organized see how those emotions still Vibrating blue the discomfort the clogging the the clenching.
Oh wow That's that's you know the doing that is non doing But when you talk about that, wow, would you sell this Wow? It is like you you can enjoy anger I can't You know, it's so annoying. I can't where is it now? Where is it now? It's just a memory, right? It's just a memory so you can't enjoy the memory but when the anger is in the middle It's of explosion. There is no question of joy or absence of joy It's just what's happening and all the power is channeled to that outburst and then five minutes later or an hour later Outburst is gone.
And that's when the mind kicks in and says I hate it. I don't want it I don't want to feel it. But in the moment when it was happening, there was no mind Yeah, so Training the mind to stay Present with what is happening outburst is gone the anger the the the reminiscent of the anger is just And the clenching that's what's happening right now Yes. Yes, but but five minutes ago forget it is dead is gone. How about now? Yes. Yes, but when the next time How about now Train the mind to engage with what is happening And then you will see how much joy.
Oh, wow This is actually over shit You know, the discomfort is over the anger is over Wow but now the mind is gonna chew on it and feel this regulated and justifiably angry and chew on it and bring it on and prevent it to happen in the future and keep itself miserable and And the truth is you're not in control Another outburst is likely to show up if it is habituated in the machine. Let's face it But if you learn Train your own mind after the outburst is over to actually I'm here. There's nothing wrong right now and The mind will say yes. Yes. Yes, but but but but okay, but how about right now?
Okay, right now is okay But right now is okay and just ground itself in there right now, which is always okay and Suddenly you have the mind which habituates being okay and It can even enjoy the anger because right now obviously it can't and fact that it can't is actually self Regulating mechanism the fact that the body doesn't enjoy pain Well is the love of being isn't it the fact that the body does not enjoy causing harm by screaming at kids? Well, that's love of being too Recognizing it for what it is and appreciating it Wow. Yeah, I didn't think about that. Yeah I the funny thing is that for example in the moment that I shut the door of my room and I stay alone The anger Starts to go away, you know, so and the moment they open the door they want to come in I just the anger comes again, you know, it so it's like yeah this relation we Those patterns that are my kids When they are yelling a lot, you know Yeah, something is happening.
Maybe some autopilot, you can say something about my mother. I remember my mother being angry, especially at me all the time. My sister used to be perfect. So I had three kids like me when I was a kid. So yeah, maybe it's that autopilot. But yeah, there's nothing to do about it. It's impossible. It just comes and goes. It comes and goes. Yeah. Yeah, I didn't ask because I wanted to tell me something to do about it because I know there's nothing to do about it. But I don't know. It's really strong. So it's something really strong that happened here and it happened since I'm a little kid.
So yeah. I guess it's just an autopilot and it's going to keep happening. It's happening. It's better, you know, better than years ago. Because years ago I used to get mad and I used to stay for days, weeks mad at the other person. Now it goes away faster. So that's cool. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And we have Jenny and Kim. I think Jenny was first, would you like to unmute? Yeah. I so recognize your sharing Sandra and it can be with anger or it can be with sadness or with any emotion. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And just my personal experience has been that when I chose, when I started to relabeling what was happening, something was changing in my brain.
When I started to stop calling things what I had called them all my life, like anger or sadness or jealousy or resentment, when I took the labels away and just exchanged them to weather, to weather, you know. And to weather, sometimes it kills it. Oh, it's thunderstorm. Oh, look, it's raining again. Oh, look. Like you said, the storm. Oh, the wind. It's blowing. When I started to take away all those old labels of what was actually happening and just exchange them to weather, suddenly something became to get a different flavor in my experience. Because with the weather, it's so obvious to me that there's nothing I can do about it.
I can go out into a rainstorm. And I can. I can yell, stop raining, for God's sake, stop raining. I want the sun to shine. It doesn't matter what I do. It will rain until it stops. It will blow until it stops. And the same goes with the other weather, with my own weather, with the weather of this planet, of this entity. So then it's so much easier to observe, to just be with the weather. And sometimes, you know, even I, it's even possible to laugh at it and to say, oh, holy cow, I wonder how long this storm is going to last. And it's again the word identification.
It again depersonalizes what is happening. It's not that I. The I is doing something. It's not the I being sad or the I being angry or the I being whateverish. It's just life expressing in different kinds of weather. And that's what I wanted to share because I recognize myself. It's like, you know, a sister from another mother. That's beautiful. Kimu, would you like to unmute? Yeah. Hi. I'd like to respond to Yvonne or not Yvonne. Jenny's first share and also yours, Katz. I thought they dovetailed great. The whole Nisargadatta thing about I'm now dead to the body and mind. And Jenny talking about there's nothing wrong with kind of like a path or improvement or this and that.
So I love Nisargadatta's quote. Some folks might say that that's depressing. It's not depressing or kind of giving up. But you know, there's a natural with mature people, with loving people, there's a natural congratulations. Like, hey, you gave up smoking or drinking or you know, you lost 30 pounds. You know that stuff is wonderful or that the psychological suffering has abated. The issue isn't whether it's good or bad. It's the coupling. So in those instances, the coupling is okay. But what happens if I didn't quit smoking? What happens if I am Nisargadatta? I kept smoking or what happens if I didn't lose the weight? That's what I'm pointing to about how the recognition of what already is isn't coupled with the state of becoming for the human experience.
And one of the things, another thing that Gilbert points out, you know, Gilbert is my love-hate relationship. But the thing is, is there are no customers for this. So it's very rare to see quite obviously like Nisargadatta did that this present and awareness is just unassailable. That it's totally uncoupled and independent of what's happening. That it's totally uncoupled and independent of what's happening. That it's totally uncoupled and independent of what's happening. That it's totally uncoupled and independent of what's happening with the body and the mind. There are no customers for that. There always has to be someone who comes in like, how is this going to make my relationship with my wife better?
How am I going to stop drinking? You can't avoid that once human interaction comes with that. But the danger in it as far as, you know, saying it's not good, you know, it's not good or bad. It's just what's happening. You have to, you have to stop. You have to stop. You have to see the other side to it. Like what if this isn't happening for me? So there's a natural human compassion. We congratulate. And there's also a buffer on the other hand. You know, we're not going to have financial or other kind of physical or intimacy abuses in spirituality. And we're also going to have boundaries which I have had.
I'm not going to allow someone to say blah, blah, blah, or your pointers are crap. We're not doing that. We're going to have a safe place to share. But what Nisargadatta is doing is perfect. Perfect. Perfect response. So folks have a problem with Nisargadatta still smoking. I can tell you 2000 years ago, people had, you know, you live a perfect life. And if you're a guru, you're still going to be accused. Oh, how did you let yourself die? You know, Jesus let himself die on the cross. Nisargadatta let himself die. Ramana of cancer too. And Bob, quote unquote, let himself die. How is this a problem?
How is this a problem for what we're pointing at? Again, the coupling. Okay, this person's a guru or this person said they got it. Now let me do the check sheet to see where their life is crap or where they... If they haven't got it. If they haven't mastered life, I can't listen to them. That's the thinking. And if they have mastered their life, then I'm lost. I'm totally off the track of what we're pointing at, that it's already here. It's unassailable. When I hold others to a standard, I also hold myself to that standard. And I take myself to be something that's changeable. I mean, this stuff is wonderful.
You put on the three-month tobacco patch and six months go by. You thought it was a six-month patch, but you kicked smoking through the placebo effect. And you don't want a cigarette and you don't want another patch. Yeah, I'm going to clap for that too. But the person who's still smoking, I'm also going to say like, hey, that's not good for your health. But I'm not going to say he's not that because he is. You are. You have to take care of each other. There's not ever going to be abuse and you shouldn't be abusing yourself. But, you know, it's really not the coupled. We can't get away from it.
There are no customers for what is because there's nothing to do. There is nothing to do. And that's the joke about it. Oh, you know, I read this stuff. So now I have to do it. I have to go to India to see Nisargadatta to become something or to understand something. Going all the way out to Australia to see Sailor Bob. I mean, it's the natural flow of events. And we applaud things. But all I'm saying is with the yes, there is nothing wrong with attainments. There is nothing wrong with a here's how my life changed once I did this. But there's a danger to it.
That coupling also reveals if you're taking yourself to be someone who aced the spiritual path, you will also see your downfall in what parts of your life haven't improved. And you'll think that there's still something to do where there isn't a me to be improved. There are just improvements that manifest that we all clap. There's no one. There's no one who did it, but we still clap and we're genuinely happy for you, even though there is no you. But just be careful about the coupling effect. Yes, it's not good. It's not bad. But it's not what we're pointing at. And I love Nisargadatta's courage to do that.
Yep, I'm dead to the body and the mind. I'm smoking. So what? Next question. What does my smoking have to do with you? Nothing. Unless you have a spirit-o-meter. Spirit-o-meter. And you're looking for gurus based upon how they appear, what they're doing. Oh, this one must be good. He's so clean cut and spiritually sounding and his gaze makes me shake. That's lost in the sauce. Lost in the sauce. It already is. Doesn't matter if someone's smoking. Unless their behavior bleeds over into a community problem. Financial, physical, intimacy, abuse, family, domestic violence, whatever. Other than that, leave them alone. Leave yourself alone. That's the biggest one.
Leave yourself alone. You know, there's going to be a natural thing to relieve afflictions, right? Working on afflictions to try to get better. But please don't couple that with a failure of the understanding or a failure of the I am-ness because it can't fail. Thank you. Thank you, Kimo. I wonder, Dean, if you could read the comments and maybe give us a little summary. Well, it's nearly three minutes. Well, it's nearly time. Earlier on, Carlos said a deep thanks to something Yvonne said earlier. And then Yvonne, because it's been a little while since the comments, this is the proof of the pudding when the shit hits the fan.
And Yvonne said life can be very uncomfortable and look at nature. And there's endless examples of nature where you can see the uncomfortableness in the moment. Jenny said abuse or abused or not abused. That will always be that. Smoking or not smoking. And Yvonne says no requirements anyhow. Yeah. So thanks for your comments. Thanks for listening. You know, I enjoyed Kimo today, especially in the different facets and angles that he presented and the expression of Kimo, the expression of everyone who shared, the expression of everyone who listened. You know, we started off with, you know, start with that fact that you're already that. And then the meeting seemed to present a lot of different angles, a lot of different ways of expressing that, a lot of different aspects of the human.
And Kat, at one point you said, you know, it's a Nisargadatta quote, like the world, I don't live in the world. The world lives in me. And, you know, like when you say start with the fact that you're already that. Yeah. So, you know, I think that's a great point. You know, I think that's a great point. And then you start with the fact that you're already that. That is, that is that presence in which there is an appearance of a character in a world, but it's all inclusive. So you are that presence. You are that complete presence, which includes the character, which includes the fear that the character may portray.
The commentary the character may appear to be talking about or experiencing from that fear, whether it's right or wrong or good or bad or should change. Or shouldn't. It's the fact that you are that is the whole shebang and the appearance of that character in the shebangness. It's not separate from the shebangness. It's part of the shebangness. And that's, you know, no matter what's been said or heard or listened to or described or explained, resting in that absoluteness of your absolute existence and knowing and no one is separate from it. No one is exempt from it. No one is exempt. There are no lieutenants. There is no ringleaders.
There is no one who knows this any more than anyone else. No one. People can express it in infinite ways. But yeah, you are that. And it's and the whole shebang is is the appearance of that. And that aspect of that you think was you or you don't think is you or there's no you or there is you. It's still part of that shebang. Amen. Thank you. It was delightful. Thank you. And thank you, everyone. I think there is one more comment here now. The whole shebang. That was you. Shebang. Yay. Thank you. Thank you, everyone. And thank you for hanging out and celebrating the shebang.
And see you in a couple of days if you get to join us. Bye bye. Bye bye. Bye bye.