This transcript was made by speech-recognition software, so names and some words may be misheard. The recording is the original: watch on Facebook.
Oh, we got a little tasting board for information. Sorry for that. We have two more people coming on Zoom. And welcome those who are with us on Zoom for the first time. Welcome. I hope you're going to enjoy it. We're not going to be, well, we'll see how it unfolds. But we invite everyone of you to interrupt, put the hand up, ask questions, direct the conversation in any way that you feel that you would like it to go. It's an exploration. So we all like to do it as a group. And we have four of us who still work with Hayman before I speak. Thank you.
So we have two people here in the room. And then he is. Yes. So we have Ben, Tony, and Hayman. And we have someone who's going to come right as well. And here we have David, George, Jane, John, Kiryu, and Sharon. I'll open it. Sharon and Tony, hopefully. And yeah, welcome. So we start. For those who haven't been with us before, the basic predicament of non-duality is that you are already present and aware of present. They say awareness of presence or awareness of existence is least. And people would often say, OK, so I'm aware of existence, but it's not least. And if you don't experience the ease of being or appreciation of existence, if you don't see how miraculous it is.
Yeah. Because the fact that you even are is the fact that you are capable of seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, telling. If that feels like it's not a big deal, the bigger deal is a drama. What am I going to do tomorrow? Or whether my partner likes me or my childhood trauma. And you kind of lose sight and overlook the miraculousness of existence, meaning awareness of existence doesn't feel like that. That's the place where we start. And so we start. And then we have the other person. And then we have the other person. So that's the fourth one, and then we come back and see what obscures the bliss of being, the appreciation for being, the noticing miraculousness of our system, the acknowledging the radiance.
Because if there isn't a reason for being, there is appreciation not of being. They also say sometimes in the ancient scripture that it is all about the love of people. Being, knowing, and loving people. Being, knowing, and loving people. And I think that is the most important thing that we should be aware of. That's the fourth one. being knowing and loving people and you could see that everything in nature in your body in your interactions with so-called world because it feels like i am here and the world is out there all of that deep down is motivated by love of being sometimes feels like just an urge to survive or just the urge to do better than a neighbor or just to be liked by other people or even by myself but that is all how the love of being the pure natural love of being is translated through that bio machine to translate the raw energy very basic thinking imagine thinking so that energy is translated into those channels and we have oh you had someone jane oh would you like to unmute them or contribute um cat i can't hear you somebody else mentioned can't hear is it is it me or you with somebody else said okay let's try something that's better yeah that sounds a lot better oh but it's not connected now i think this one is flashing you'll have to start again cat okay thank you for that and see working now is is this one better is this mic better yes yes okay that's better better for us too oh okay okay thank you yeah thank you sorry for that uh i think this one might be it's all right oh it's all right okay okay so so the basics uh i don't know how much you didn't hear the the basics of of non-duality is the assertion that the title of nisargadatta's book is i am that uh but really the maha vakya which is a great mantra doesn't say i am that it says that i am maha vakya that i am so it it points out to the awareness that i am i know that i am there is awareness of existence here and it also says in the scriptures such chit ananda awareness of being is bliss so often the whole quest for enlightenment is the quest for a blast i know that i am that's for granted can't deny it everyone knows that where is the bliss where is the pleasure where is the ecstasy so this is where uh bob would invite people to actually see what is obscuring their sense of appreciation love of being being knowing loving to be the love of being is the appreciation of existence appreciation of that miraculous amazing capacity to see to hear to taste to touch to smell to imagine to fantasize to plan to dream it's an incredible capacity but instead of actually appreciating that capacity attention is usually swallowed by the content of imagination it doesn't often complain about oh i don't like what i'm seeing right now unless it compares it with what it should be which is imagination it doesn't same the the present moment is usually not so bad unless the thought comes and evaluates it in relation to some mentality images and projections.
So what actually obscures the natural love of being or appreciation of existence or even acknowledging the miraculousness of seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling and the capacity for imagining, all those amazing capacities, is the content of imagination. So it is the fact that I'm going to get old and die and sick or maybe some of my family members doesn't like me or maybe is at the brink of dying or maybe something bad has happened to me in the past and I can't stop thinking about it or maybe there is a future that can of course always go wrong. And that obsession about that which is not happening, engaging, being engaged with the imagination, with that sixth sense, to the extent that I can't think of anything else, I can't think of anything else.
So I'm going to get old and in which all the other senses are marginal, almost neglected. And suddenly now we're not leaving from that present miraculousness, the bliss of being, the appreciation, the love of existence, but from the translation of it. Instead of leaving from the heart, we leave from the mind, which is frankly translation of that raw energy, raw energy of existence, of aliveness into the seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling and thinking, which is imagining. So now, instead of appreciation what I see, I'm looking at things, labeling them, comparing them with what I would see instead, and I suffer. Instead of appreciating the things that are happening right now, the raw energy of appreciation gets translated into again, imagining what I would have instead, focusing on the lack and suffering.
Self-image. Instead of having, and of course this is a biocomputer, it does have certain limitations, it doesn't fly, some biocomputers can't cook or do other things, have limitations in the dream. To have a healthy navigational skills evaluating how fast your car can drive, on which road it can appropriately behave to its capacity, not exceeding it, not breaking it, it's quite healthy, there's nothing wrong with self-evaluation, but self-esteem comes from identifying with self-evaluation. If I know that this particular vehicle can't fly off the building, it doesn't have to be that, oh I'm not good enough, I'm a piece of shit, I'm unworthy to be alive, because I can't fly.
So, I'm not good enough, I'm a piece of shit, I'm unworthy to be alive, because I can't fly. So, this is where the difference comes from, like using the mind to be able to assess the environment and survive in the environment, just like any other animal to the best of its capacity, versus being completely swallowed, the whole stream of aliveness, of attention, completely enslaved, entrapped, hijacked by the mind, which for its, own purposes, creates the avatar, creates the mini-me, the idea of self, that has to control the environment to be safe and to survive. And again, idea of its own, it's not wrong, it comes from love of being, which is a love of being safe and surviving and thriving, there's nothing wrong.
But if that is taken to be reality, if we lose sight of the fact, there's someone, I think maybe, if we lose sight from the fact that this is just one of the capacities, hey, that is just one of the capacities, rather than the ultimate reality, then of course the suffering sits in, and it looks like I am trapped in my identity, and I'm limited, I'm in a cage of concepts, and literally it is a cage made of concepts. It is, they are the concepts that I've learned alongside, I've learned when I was growing up. I was told I was a person, I was told I was female.
First I was a little girl, then I was a teenager, whatever. All of that came from a language model. It has been installed, just like any other program that you installed in your computer or your phone. If you have warm and loving family, may afford a program of trusting people that remind you your parents if you had a traumatic childhood you may have a program of absolutely doubting everything and mistrusting and distrusting everyone you may have a program of pleasing people to survive a program of kindness a program of bullying it depends on how the environment shaped you that survival strategies will be developed and again seeing them for what they are this is the bio computer bio machine which enables the life essence the omnipresence to see hear taste touch and smell so it is essential that it stays alive it's nothing wrong with the survival instinct with love of being appearing as as desire for safety or for even for power if that brings sense of safety but identifying i am this vehicle therefore no matter how much safety i can convince myself i have the future is unknown i can't ever be ultimately safe well people say you will when you're in a grave but today we bury people no graves so the same with power no matter how much power you have you can lose it tomorrow you can lose your life if you are convinced you are some little mini me trapped in a cage of concept of the body or even worse you are the body itself well there is no ultimate safety for the body the body is going to deteriorate their fantasies that oh you know people the scientists even discover ways to extend life two thousand years okay make it ten thousand it's still gonna expire so it's not a real picture okay beiel is it somewhat attempt you see it is it has a something but it's the opposite it is not the mean thing it isn't a normal救ling buck Es Grandma it's the best thing happen to me El Omar todos Battery Belifying yourself to be a car and your identity Beliefing yourself to be people who so believing yourself to be your car may be helpful when you are driving on a highway and you look at the signs on the road slow down or road bump or turn yes okay I am slowing down okay I'm going fast okay I So this helps a lot when you are driving a car well the driver of the car is not moving at all, by that means that you can't use it for night or day with heavy luggage ok I am stopping while the driver of a car is not moving at all it's just a little movement on the steering wheel will and that's it but the car is moving fast so is the car is slowing down and yet you still say i'm slowing down or i'm moving faster perfectly appropriate for navigational purposes perfectly appropriate when i say i'm going to the shops i'm going to the restaurant absolutely nothing wrong however if i start believing myself i'm my car well there are institutions for that that's not appropriate that's not true and am i really and this is where non-duality differs from all the other systems philosophical schools and and non-duality in a different traditions in a different um religious and philosophical schools exists underneath all the structures and rules that accumulated later so this is not not a problem say oh this is better than anything else no it it is all pervading but what it differs from the systems that have been organized that tell you what you have to do how you have to live your life how many hours of meditation per day or per week or what sort of mantras or even practicing kindness or or all the other things they all presume that there is a little person who has a choice to do that and who has a duty to control themselves their reactions their thoughts and their bodies non-duality invites you to have a look and see for yourself and you could say okay but if there is no one there to look who is going to look who cares do you want to see or not the paradox of pointing is here at this point yes there is no one to look but before you actually see that there is no one to see you have to look yes but who is to look okay start wherever you believe you are if you believe you are a little person looking okay make that believe little person look and find its own location see if you can see if anyone comes at you as reflection of the reason why they start looking and become aware of who you are or eyes no more can help you in offering first pleasure see if you See if you can locate that little person anywhere.
And if you can, wonderful. See who has done the locating. It would obviously not be the same one. So non-duality invites people to actually see how the whole machine functions, how the mind functions, how the world is constructed, how the world is projected. What world is this particular machine seeing? Through the projections and programs that have been installed, through the conditioning that that machine has received, what sort of dream am I seeing? Is it the same dream as you are seeing, or Dean is seeing, or anyone else is seeing? The assumption is yes, of course. The world is, the agreed upon reality is solid. And I am born into the world, and I live for whatever, 50 or 100 years, and then I live, and the world still stays as it was before, or maybe slightly changed, because of course there are upgrades in the dream.
But this is an agreed upon reality, which is our nowadays religion. The religion of science, the religion of the conceptual overlay, defining the world as something outside of myself, which I'm visiting. I'm... I'm a visitor, I'm a traveler, coming and going. Rather than direct experience, which will tell you that you are always here, and the world is coming and going. As you go to sleep, the world goes. As you wake up, the world returns. As you move from your bedroom to your kitchen, the bedroom disappears and the kitchen appears. But you, the consciousness, are always here. You never go anywhere. But hey, this doesn't make any sense.
It's better to operate, it's better to navigate, if I take the map of reality, which is solid and stable. The road is always stable, the countries are established, the lakes, the rivers, and I am the mobile. I'm moving vehicle. That's correct. Within that dream, it is more convenient. We can go with that in the dream. When you dream at night and you dream of flying, the world, your kitchen, your bedroom, they may all be gone. Your body may all be gone. Or your body might be lying down on bed, but it's gone in a dream. You're not aware of it in the dream. And you have another body that is lighter and it's flying.
And it's flying over some territories that haven't been present when you were awake. So which body is right? Which dream is right? And what is the common denominator with both? Isn't the presence of consciousness? Isn't it that I am here? I am first. And then this room appears. And this computer and those people and those cats. And then when I fall asleep, another world appears. But I am always here. The consciousness, the presence. Now within this dream, there is a... mental convention, the conventional sort of reality saying that I am a person. This is my vehicle. This is what I am navigating. I am female.
Within the night dream, I usually... I am not quite sure whether I am male or female. Because it doesn't really concern me. I am interacting with the environment that is appearing in consciousness. Sometimes I am flying. Sometimes I am running or swimming or dancing. But I am not that concerned with what I am. And I don't quite remember my name or my age. In other dreams, I may remember. And that name and the age may be different. But the consciousness, that never changes. It is always here. It is always present. Every time. There is a looking back. The consciousness is always present. I think I forgot to record it.
That's okay. Yes. I always... Yes. Unfortunately, the machine is aging. Yes. Yes. Yes. So that is that really in regards to non-duality. Instead of associating or identifying yourself with the vehicle that is experiencing the environment. Instead of assuming the map. The mental map. That has been created about the world. And about this avatar in the world. Instead of assuming them to be the territory. See what is known directly. In the direct experience. Are you appearing in time? Or the time is appearing in you? Were you born in a particular year? Growing up and dying perhaps. In some alleged future. Or is the whole timeline including the big bang and the history and the whole history of religion and science and conspiracies appearing in you?
The moment attention touches the potentiality. So the field of knowing. The Sat Chit Ananda. The being. Awareness of being. And the lightfulness of it. Is always here. And if the other two factors like the reality was presented in Advaita Vedanta as five elements of factors. Those five factors. Three were describing three aspects of one. Indivisible reality. And two. The illusion. The Maya. The projection. Like three were. Describing the pure space like. Sky like. Reflective surface. Or a mirror. Sat Chit Ananda. Being. Awareness of being. And the lightfulness. Or contentment. In existence. And the two others. Name and form. And shape and pattern. Name and form.
Those two factors. Nama Rupa. Were describing the projection. The reflection. The clouds and the clouds. The light. The light. The reflection. The reflection. The reflection. The reflection. The reflection. The reflection. The clouds on the sky. The reflections in the mirror. The patterns, shapes and forms. All appearing. Within that consciousness. So the consciousness is the reality. The way the consciousness transforms itself and vibrates. Into those patterns, shapes and forms. Is unreality. Because it's fleeting. It's dreamy. It's here now. It's not going to be here in a hundred years or thousand years. Or even a hundred milliseconds. It's going to change. Things about the body are going to change.
The words are going to change. The other experiences and expressions. Everything is going to change. But the consciousness stays. It doesn't change. It never changes. It accommodates everything. It allows everything. It allows pain and pleasure equally. It allows the sense of insecurity. And the superiority and inferiority. And past and future. And every possible expression and appearance. That could possibly. That could be conceived of. And it all comes from nothing. It's the Buddhist saying of the emptiness becoming form. It doesn't really. It stays emptiness. But it appears as forms. It appears as the dream. Just like the dream at night. Same the daydream. Which is a little bit more.
More of a dream. More of a reality. More of a reality. It's a little bit more solid and substantial. But only because it's happening right now. Because when the reality of the night dream is happening right now. It's solid and substantial also. And I wonder if we have any comments here. Sandy says. Oh, so enjoying this morning spiel. Thank you, Sandy. And you could consider joining us on Zoom too. And say a word or two. I always enjoy your contribution too. And question. And anyone else would like any. Any word have a saying. Cliffy, you speaking. You want a mic? No. No? Yes. Yes. Okay.
Get a mic. There's not much to say. I was listening to your spiel, Kat. It was very interesting. And that all I can think of is just this. And nothing else. And then the mind comes in and spins stories. Or takes our attention away from just pure being. With what is. And the mind comes in and spins a story. And we go into that one. And then we leave that one. And we go into another one. But then just bringing it back to just this and nothing else. Is where the peace is. Because the mind is all. The mind is always turmoil and conflicting and ever changing.
There's nothing wrong with that. But realize that it's always on the background of just this and nothing else. That's about it for now. That's brilliant. That's perfect. Because that's always. That brings us back home to this ever present. Ever present moment of nowness. Yes. Of beingness. That, you know, again, whenever you look, when is it not now? It's always now. And just this and nothing else. Even if within that space of now, there is a projection of the world, of the dream. And the dream within the dream. And the fantasy about the future. Which is not happening right now. But is present as a dream.
As a fantasy. Or the childhood trauma. Which is not happening right now. But is present as a dream. As a fantasy. As a dream. As a memory. The moment is not happening right now. But is present as a memory. Which is just another dream. Just this. Nothing else. Nothing excluded. And yet, all right now. No future. No past. The future and past are the mental constructs right now. They only exist, they only appear to exist, when believed. Just like monsters under the bed. But shed the light of consciousness. Where is the light of consciousness? Where is the past when you don't think about it? Where is it?
Look at that monster. Where is it? Shed the light of consciousness on it. Is it even there? Yeah. Where is the future? I like the monsters under the bed. They're mine like making up monsters. It's usually me. That's the monster in some way. Just like me. You're so right. Yeah. I'm having trouble doing something else. Is that the same me that has to go somewhere else this afternoon or the same me that's gotta fill in the tax return tomorrow. We string all these ideas together into this me with all these so-called problems in the future or in the past. And they're all just ideas occurring in that timeless, spaceless presence.
It's just come back to the present. And where are all those ideas? Beautiful. Yeah. Yeah. And this is again, a core of the investigation, the monster called me, the monster that me, that is not good enough. They're not smart enough, not pretty enough at this vulnerable that is gonna get, um, it's gonna get hurt. It's gonna get, it's gonna get disliked. It's gonna get rejected. And, um, and what is it again? This is the part of the map, you know, just like the, the body is like a car on the road, the navigational system in the car. Like sometimes I had a friend, I mean, he's still my friend, uh, but he had his navigational system set in the voice of the, uh, dark waiter from the, um, star Wars.
That was so funny. It would speak. It would speak with him. It would answer him. And it was a serious monster navigating his car. So that navigational system, that me, you could set it to whatever voice you want. You know, you have all those NLP tricks when you can change your inner voice to the voice of a Mickey mouse. And then the inner judge becomes laughable. Uh, it's almost this, this is really when you look at the nature of the me, what is it? Apart from the narrative, the narrative of the voice yapping, constantly commenting, humming the past melodies, regurgitating the problems. And it is almost in, in many cases addicted to having something to chew on.
One problem solves that picks up another one. It just keeps entertaining. And when it is hostile, well, it may cause suicidal ideations when it is kind and light. We don't mind. Sometimes, you know, like, I've asked that question many times. So don't you have the narrative? Don't you have that voice in the head? He said, oh, sometimes it, it's choose on something, but it's like a background sound. It doesn't matter. It doesn't bother. Sometimes it's completely quiet and there's nothing happening. And sometimes the singing, sometimes we would get up and we would hum the same melody in the background. And one of us would suddenly sing it out loud and we would burst laughing.
Oh, you, you sang the same thing. Yep. It happens when you are in tune. So this voice is not a problem. Even the content of what the voice is narrating is not a problem. It's a program that has been installed. Is that navigational system that has been set to a particular voice in particular tone? Believing this is who I am. I am this voice. Therefore, what I'm saying is true. This is the source of suffering. I am the consciousness within me. The voice sometimes is humming a melody. Sometimes there is no voice and sometimes it's chewing, but I'm always here. Whether the voice is there or the voice is not there.
I'm always here. And like you say, leave the me, you know, the me that is going to the shops, the me that is interacting with my ex wife, the me that is interacting with my kids. Is it even the same character? Because when you ask those people, they will say, oh no, no, my dad is not like, oh, my ex husband is not like that. You know, they'll see different conceptual image of you. Yeah. Or people, you know, like people you serve when you are in a, when you are MP, you know, like, come on, they will have completely different outlook at what you are or who you are, or different personality.
And you will have different concept of every one of them. Because again, this navigational system, it needs them up and it constantly creates them up. Go on. I was just thinking that you appear as a different character in your mind, and you appear as a different character to other people with you have different perceptions on other people too. Like I said, yeah, before I got to know this guy, I used to think he was a real crook, you know, that he was a crooked politician that you can't trust him. We can't trust anything he says. Then I got to know him. And I found him to be a delightful, pretty, you know, honest sort of character, nothing wrong with him after the imagination conjured up something else.
And you think of people in your life and they're really just a concept to you in a way at that time. And that concept can change. So all these ideas we have about what's solid about our imagined personality, and how we can change that. And I think that's what's so important about the way we think about our own personality or body shape or what, how we appear is ever changing, but we seize on it, try to make it something. And the other thing about the voice in the head, sometimes it's very loud and you think, okay, right here, what's wrong with right now without a thought, just calm the mind, but the mind wants to chatter.
It wants to, wants to come back in there. And now more like today, because I'm running late. I say, hurry up, can't keep them, keep moving, you know, but that's something I picked up in my childhood, you know, brought up in a family that like that sort of, you know, no resting, keep moving, got a hurry running late or lots of stuff. Yeah. You can, you can see how this is the software and this is, this is the software that likely gets you where you are. And you have no second. Sure. I think that's another example of the voice voice in the head, sounding differently.
Like I probably said before that, like, if I watch a lot of dramas or something, suddenly it pops up that the eye face image that pops up here is, you know, young Korean male or something. Cause I've been watching a lot of that drama. And the other day I noticed like the voice pop was one of the characters voices that popped up of an, in a thought was that character's voice on it popped out. And yeah, had another example, but it's gone. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Neuro neurons. I think they don't have some contributions from Anthony. Hi, Anthony. I'm can't help, but bring up my dad.
He must start every day with a kind of Samadhi meditation. He says it's to remind himself of where it's all arising from. I can't help, but wonder why he needs to bother when it's always pretty evident. Once you say which is, which he has. Feels like he's just a bliss junkie. Lots of laughs, I suppose there's nothing wrong without the thought. I just want, want him. I, I just want for him what he's looking for. Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Well, the lovely addiction, please junkie, you go, come on. Why not? Yeah. You can, you can see that tendency and thank you. Anthony. You see, you know, that tendency is part of loving to be, I think.
mentioned you know like if you look at the motivation of every body mind machine to always preserve life in every possible way it's a very very basic binary system they're loving to be you know distinguishing what is a high higher likelihood of survival pain of pleasure and then it goes sometimes it may grow like cancer the pleasure okay so the pleasure of having a drink now i'm gonna have another one and another one another one another one and machine gets addicted bob was down that path and and didn't take you to a nice places but it had to happen this way because again this is the whole brilliant brilliant brilliant biocomputer which has the capacity to self-regulate and learn down that path which let's face it you know he had couple i think i wrote about it you in the biography couple of his mates who actually ended up in aaa at the same time as him left aaa at the same time as him and didn't make it back they ended up one jumping off the window in a hotel in one of the prominent hotels in melbourne another one shoot himself so it is not to say that this brilliant intelligence is always going to preserve life and succeed at that no quite the opposite every single body is highly likely going to end up in ashes backs to nothingness the it it the agenda of staying alive is also to the extent of the you know it's it's not that important really to stay alive is as important as it is easy to be achieved so the being drawn to towards pleasure and comfort and safety and avoiding the pain and discomfort and danger and fear is the is the algorithm that that drives towards survival and as much as it is possible in that spontaneous unfolding in that in unpredictability of the 10 000 things arising simultaneously this body mind and every other body mind including the ant and bee and mosquito will navigate to survive for the sake of experiencing an expression for the sake of that life essence which is potentiality seeing hearing and tasting and touching smelling and i see um uh is it john that is unmute would you like to jump in john and say something oh i didn't realize i was unmuted no that was an accident i'm sorry um but maybe that's uh maybe that's a lucky accident and you want it maybe it's not an accident well i i i was curious um you know i i understand the i the you know that this already is and that's a central um oh start my video yeah i understand one of the central tangents of this is that you know we're talking about something that's already going on and i'm not sure if you can hear me or not but i'm not sure if you can hear me or not and it's an illusion that um you know keeps us from recognizing this but for you in your time with bob i remember you mentioning some initial frustration and and not clicking and you know what are you talking about here and i was curious about the turning point for you and um just just how that how that looked you know yeah yeah that's that's a great great question and that's you know a lot of people that I talk with and I have quite a few calls every week sometimes few every day is a lot of people is looking for a breakthrough for defining moment with the fireworks going off like yesterday I was a person and today I'm the eternity of now it doesn't work this way and especially when you ask how it was for you because the you is this navigational system is that Siri that is speaking you know the speaking source of the microphone the Avatar that is not who I am that is my Speaker this is my Speaker I am alive speaking through that through that microphone of that of that body mind and I have always been that though for the first 41 years of my life not maybe when I was a year old I didn't remember anything.
But for the first. 41 years of my life not maybe when I was a year old I didn't remember anything but for the first. first few decades of my life, that life essence speaking through that microphone was completely trapped in the cage of concepts in that mental image in the believing that I was a person, that I was a mini me, that there was I life fooled myself effectively to believe that I am something else, I am something small, the hide and seek in which God has hidden so well that it can't find itself even though it's all there is. And then as the moments as I was coming to Bob's meetings and before that I had the introduction to non duality in India and I was sitting with different Zen sanghas and being in monasteries, I had moments of mind going quiet.
So the sense of being separate, me dissolving. And yet, later on, when the me and sometimes it would dissolve for like weeks. But there was no realization that it dissolved because the realization that it dissolved comes from the mind which is already back in. Oh shit, I didn't have a problem for three weeks. I didn't feel like there was anybody there. Oh, I want to go back. But this navigational system, which again is believed to be me, that can never go anywhere. It is just a speaker. It is just a narrative. It is just a narrative. It is just a narrative program. But what is registering that narrative program has never gone anywhere.
So that breakthrough moment that I had in December 2015, I was sitting with Bob on one and only individual call that I had with him was the realization that it can't be realized because the person who is trying to realize it has no existence. So there can't be a breakthrough. There can't be an enlightenment for that which doesn't exist. So suddenly the dropping off all the idea or all waiting for the breakthrough, all waiting for something else in the future, all seeking and all concepts of incompleteness, all identification with that fear of rejection and that vulnerability. Foof. Completely dropped away. And I was like, Oh, I'm going to die.
I'm going to die. I'm going to die. But hey, it has dropped away before and it wasn't present for weeks altogether or for days altogether or for moments in meditation altogether. But it wasn't conscious. It's dissolved the way it dissolves every night when you go to sleep. And it on autopilot reestablished itself when you get out of the meditation or out of the retreat or when you wake up in the morning. But this time it somehow somewhat happened. And it's been seen through all along. Oh shit. This conceptual image can't ever become anything, grasp anything, understand anything, achieve anything, become anyone. And how could I ever believe that was who I am?
How could that possibly be unseen? It was seen with the clarity that before the same thing was experienced, the same thing was experienced. when you were two year old. Just the pure, basic, ordinary awareness in which the life, the whole dream unfolds. Nothing has changed in perception. But the idea that I am something other than that whole field of gaze, the whole field of seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling, or any idea that I am anything at all, couldn't hold water anymore, couldn't be believed again, couldn't be unseen. Since then on. There is no idea that could possibly believed of what I am. I don't know what I am, but I know that I am.
And this is the secret that I am. And that I always knew, but it was so clogged up and cover up and piled up with the shit that I knew that I was, that I believed that I knew that I was, I was absolutely certain that I was a woman. I was from Poland. I was not good enough. I was feeling rejection. I was vulnerable. I was fragile. I was susceptible to this, that, and the other. All that stuff might have applied to the vehicle, to the car. I could know that my car was green and my car had 300 horsepower. So what, what not, but what does it have to do with the power of the omnipresence with the omnipotence, which doesn't have qualities.
So now I am that, and I always been that which has no qualities. And I don't believe I am. I am the costume through which that, which has no qualities experience and expresses itself. And yet still there is absolute clarity that this costume can't fly the jet plane. It can't fly off the buildings and it doesn't cause any sense of inferiority because it isn't who I am. It has limitations. It keeps forgetting shit. Oh yeah. Go for it. Oh, just briefly. I've thought of another example of the no. The thing is. The thingy before, hang on. What was it? Oh yeah. Like if you watch movies or series that have a culture vastly different from your own, and then you just find a whole lot of concepts that might've disappeared out of our culture, you know, a hundred years ago, whatever.
But you then, then you suddenly come find, you know, hear a phrase coming out of your mouth and you know, it comes from the movie. Like I would say, oh, you're being too greedy. Like, and it comes from an Asian movie or something. That's just not what I've been brought up with. And then, yeah, then you can just see how, if these things are disembodied, then how the stuff that we're brought up with, you know, or come from somewhere else, but we've been too oblivious to notice, you know, also just yeah. Kind of unattached notions that yeah. Appear. Yeah. Yeah. Just that question of when it happened for you sort of thing.
That was a great answer. Kat. Because. Was really big fun. Yeah. Inspired me to think about that. Was there a turning point for me in the, in the story looking back, I, I, I don't think so, but I think it sort of happened gradually that something that Bob said that really help was, you know, you've heard all about this stuff. Why don't you, you know, try living from that position, just experiment with trying living from that, just being, and I. Just be. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. More and more I do that, but I'd often hear people, and I used to do it too in my mind, I had the habit of, I've got to find this awareness.
Once I get there, it'll all be okay, whatever, as if it was a destination for me to get there. And then I realised that is the problem itself, that I'm the searcher that's searching or I'm going to discover something that's going to make it a change when I think, oh, I've just got to get back to the beingness or being here and now. But that very concept is the problem, that there is someone there that's searching, there's someone there that's thinking all these thoughts and doing it all. And when you suddenly see that, it melts away and it just happens more and more that you, that realisation comes.
And something else Bob used to say, it was, okay, well, then try living the old way, try living the way you used to. And once you've seen it, you can't do that really. I mean, you will, for me, I find that I'm in and out of the dream all the time, but I know it's a dream and I don't get so caught up in it as I used to, but I can't go back to living in the dream anymore. It's just unimaginable to be there now. So, yeah, I don't know if there's no point in the so-called story. I'm not even the story anymore. I have to think to imagine what the story was now, any realisation.
And that's brilliant because actually, statistically, majority of situations, according to one of the guys that does, did a research on that, it's just that gentle peeling away the layers of lies and slowly, slowly just discarding the false, discarding the false. And it doesn't, it is not to say that, you know, like, oh, I get caught up in the dream. I know it's just the vocabulary. But look, you know, Bob and I, we were totally, totally attending to a dream, just like every car on every road attends to every, every road mark. And this is just the, this is just the way that the life experiences and expresses itself.
So and and even like relating to other people, we would have conceptual images of people and those conceptual images of people would be our projections and we would know that this is the way I see the person is just the way that machine is capable to see. You know, if I was blind, I would see it differently if I had different conditioning, different philosophy, different beliefs, different experiences, I would see things differently. But within the dream, that's how it functions. That's how it works. And the dream is convincing. And it and it should be this is that this is it's, you know, like the better movie you watch, the more convinced you are that this is happening, the more forgetting, the more like really you want to go to a fantastic symphony orchestra concert and forget that you are even a body.
That's right. That's the point. And we have Jane has the hand up. Would you like to unmute? Oh, yes. Is that the person who just been speaking? Is that Cliff? Is that his name? Cliff. Thank you. I always like his wisdom. I guess age, age, age helps, doesn't it? You learn some things over time. I guess one issue for me is that a lot of a lot of the teachers, non dual teachers and literature have seen what they would say. Just be and don't seek. Well, I don't know how I would classify the time I spend watching videos or reading things. But for me, I don't think it's seeking.
I think that the onion has been peeling or been peeling off over time. But for me, I need and want to watch. And like listening now, because I seem to need to be reminded and of who I am because I have been so because I'm old and I've been so conditioned over so, so, so many years. So it's sort of not exactly seeking. It is seeking, but it's but I know what you're saying, but I need that constant reminder at the moment. Would you like to comment on that, please? Sure. See, we have we have a lot of conversations on our evening zones that has been brought up by someone who is joining us that, you know, there is almost like an Advaita police sort of a behaviour saying, oh, you should stop it as if there was a you that had the power of.
You have control over starting or stopping seeking or you should not speak unless you are enlightened as if there was anybody there to be enlightened. Those ideas and those people apparently who bring that stuff to another meeting that I'm not hosting, but it's happening, those those people apparently segregate and separate those enlightened from those unenlightened and those enlightened are allowed to speak, those unenlightened are not allowed to speak and those unenlightened should stop seeking or should even stop showing up on those Zoom meetings where the poor bugger wouldn't even have anyone to speak to. The truth of the matter is you find yourself here. That's where life brought you.
Now the mind is offering you a story. Oh, I'm here because I'm still seeking. Oh, something wrong with me. I hate myself. OK, that's one story. Now the mind can. I can offer you another story. I'm here because, well, you know, I kind of and I'm I'm a junkie like, you know, Anthony was saying his dad, you know, I just love the energy of pointing. It just brings me back from a junkie to my heart. Hmm. Yeah. And this is another story. But this, you know, junkie may kind of sound a little bit pejorative, a little bit ugly. But, you know, you can have another story told in the matter.
I am here because. This is where my feet are. Yet another story may say, well, who and what and why would make me need to justify where I am is always the mind that wants the story. How about I am here because I'm here. There is no story of seeking being enlightened, being unenlightened, needing reminder, not needing reminder. I'm here. Full stop. This is the experience. I am here. Doesn't have to have see, I have those those Zoom groups that are evening groups which are in America, middle of the night in Europe morning where we have like up to 20, 25 people, sometimes half of the group doesn't need any pointing.
They are there because it's just beautiful to. Bask in the sunlight of spirit and celebrate aliveness. There's no seeking that we all pointing. Everyone has a voice. Everyone who has clarity see like here, Cleaver speaking is not just you. Quite a few people appreciate anything he says. So they know Tony and even Hamas. Hey, man was contributing. I hope he will do again. And maybe Ben and any one of you here. The truth is, is that one life is one essence. It speaks, you know, through you, Jane. It speaks as questions. And I can't tell you how valuable is that. That the questions are coming up and directing the conversation.
But it's the same essence is the same life. And now the mind offers the story according to its conditioning. Oh, there is something wrong with me. I shouldn't be here. I shouldn't. I shouldn't. I heard one or two pointers. I shouldn't be seeking. I shouldn't show up on Zoom. It's not that it is a proof that there is something wrong with you because you show up on the symphony orchestra where all the beautiful instruments are. And you're singing the glory of aliveness of God. Some life expression shows up as painting or music. And some life expression show up as appreciation of the life essence. And if that somehow resonates and touches your heart, someone else may be reading a poetry at that point.
Why is that better or worse than actually just basking that? Yes. OK. Reminders. That's what the mind has to say. But really, the reminders are to resonate in the heart. The mind can grasp it. I can and then I will gladly do that with pleasure. I can debunk every single pointer that is put to the mind. And then again, we often discuss it on the evening meetings. Debunking the pointers can be helpful. Killing the Buddha can be helpful, but let it work through first. See through the pointer, then chuck it like the. You know. The Buddhist analogy or metaphor of having a boat crossing the river and leaving the boat behind, not carrying it up to the mountains.
So the pointers, even the reminders are not for the mind. The mind is the encoding the words, but the resonation, the familiarity, the ah, yeah, right. See if there is. Yeah, right. It means the knowing is there and it's always there. There's no one who doesn't know that they are, that they are conscious. They are here. Yeah, my experience of coming to Bob's was a bit like you were saying, Jane. So like for the first year or so, it was a bit fuzzy. I don't think the delivery was that perfect or clear. All of that wasn't quite a logical brain. It wasn't all placed out nicely.
But by the end of the year, the notion came up. I think a lot of it might just be what's there when you're not thinking about it or discovered that experience had enough of that experience here and there, especially with some online transmissions from non-dual people like Nirmala, for. For example, you know, would leave like three minutes of that emptiness, you know, that sort of thing. So, yeah, still fuzzy. But yeah, basically, the next several years, I just came for the post-its of enlightenment, you know, basically it was like, yeah, oh, yeah, yeah. And we thought, oh, yeah. And then, you know, things leave, you know, the post-it is there and the things leave.
It's basically and that's how it ever is. You know, some post-it pops up in the universe and things leave. You know, it's a reminder process. And the other thing I wanted to say was about I think someone mentioned about how, yeah, how we don't really ever understand the perspective from elsewhere and the miscommunication with that. But I've got to I was just going through some old notes and one of my clients, basically physically, he doesn't feel pressure or he doesn't. He only feels temperature on us outside of his hands. Doesn't feel pain, doesn't feel, you know, a lot of things. And even under the surface, like he only feels basically movement and space so he can feel if his foot goes down a hole, he can feel as if it stops.
But he can't feel we I noticed I tried them out. You know, what can he feel? What can I feel? And we feel a bit of pressure. We go, oh, shit, you know, and we move our foot. He can feel like the drop in the pit of the stomach that there's a free fall and he can feel stopping. And that's it. He doesn't feel pain or pressure on the way down. So he'll probably break an ankle, you know. So he has to like, you know, stress and look for black holes in the environment. It's like, you know, walk funny and then all these things come up to others as always, you know, floppers and he's doing all these things.
But it's because his sensory system is just much smaller than most people's. And so they're just saying all these like either annoying behaviors or weird behaviors or calling them OCDs or whatever. And it's because, you know, eventually he could sort of like if you move his body doesn't go where he wants to suddenly get undressed as a way to relax, but he doesn't obviously want to. And so. Luckily, he sort of moved his body and enough he could then write some answers, you know, and eventually I was pulling all the stuff out of it. And I think really this happens much anywhere. People don't really dig at all into what's going on very deeply.
Some of these people, when they are able to later on suddenly just write a whole book on all this amazingly different stuff that was actually happening. But most people just make the assumptions that they're not cogent enough. Whereas the kind of therapy I trained and realized for thousands of people that they just got the same, you know, levels of intellect from as anyone that's just getting it out there. And so, yeah, just that notion I just really clicked today, like, you know, when he. You know, when his hand stops because he doesn't have depth perception either. So when his hand stops, he knows he's hit a surface.
You know, there's a physical thing there that's it stopping. That's what he's got. We grow up with all these other reminders, so we're going to see completely different things. And completely most people probably in his life, like if anyone else doesn't unpack the stuff I've been unpacking or if he doesn't actually put it down because because it's really boring for him to read text. He taught himself to read when he was five. But black and white text is so boring. He'll never look at it. He'll just look at bright colors. So, you know, and then there's no. And as long as he sees enough Disney movies, there's no motive or goes to the supermarket often enough.
There's no motivation for him to actually sit down and explain all this to everybody. And he thinks everyone talks too much anyway because he can't talk. So at the end of the. But then one time he bumped his head and he said, ouch, that hurt. And his parents came back. Oh, why did you say that? And he wrote down, I forgot to be scared. So, you know, the whole thing could just be anxiety. And yet the mainstream of this kind of thing. I have no understanding of most of us. And yeah, so it's just we just just what what notions pop up in one area, one location is just vastly different as to what's going on anywhere.
So nothing can be known. It's just crazy. It's totally unknowable. Yeah. Well, thank you. OK, yeah, we were actually discussing with Dean, I think yesterday or a couple of days ago, a situation where, you know, people have too much of the. We just lost someone. I'm sorry. Who had too much of a brain capacity. You know, when you look at the computer and you have someone super intelligent and incredibly bored interacting with other people and then start employing their skills of observation to scam them. To just pick up, OK, sauce up environment, see how much money they have, how can move three, four moves ahead to actually just because the machine is bored or learn to.
Make people as soft as they can possibly be to then inflict pain and enjoy the sense of power that comes with it and again, it's just a broken machine. It's not even broken. It's just the conditioned machine. And if you see how your own machine is conditioned and then you see that every single one is unique, is absolutely unique and is the same power fueling your your computer and your light and your washing machine and every other. Machine is the same energy, but the outcome of it is different. The vessel, the hardware is different. The software is different and you marvel and we have to hear you.
Would you like to unmute? I know. Yeah. Can you hear me OK? Yeah. Yeah. Hey, hey, well, thanks. Lovely to be here. Yeah, I just have a few questions about it seems to be a sort of grieving process. I guess I. I read Sailor Bob's work and John Wheeler to this sort of ongoing process or about for about two years, I think I've had a lot of glimpses and the sense of the me has has really fallen away, but I still feel that you know, you have that you have that thing with when you're living in communities where people don't necessarily understand this. And you can sort of get because fall back into it quite well.
And it really takes it seems to take an effort to put your attention on the the. You're not using the I am and sort of going back into the character again and and it's yeah, it's sort of been a bit of a drain, I think, on on the physical body of trying to keep that sense of. Not being involved in. In the previous life. And I just wondered if that was an experience that everyone else sort of had a sort of grieving period where I see people doing rituals, you know, like I guess like getting married and having children and sort of nine to five work and not not sort of having that.
There's like a sense of a bit of annoyance where people can't necessarily see what. What what what is seen here from this perspective. And yeah, there's there's there's like a bit of bit of anger. I feel sometimes and I feel it's like futile and a bit stupid. And I didn't know if it was just something that everyone else experienced to or. Yeah, it's an interesting and thank you for your honesty and really detailed sort of an expression like I could actually just really feel the emotions describing, but can you see how those emotions are actually a subtle response to a comparison and a judgment? So it isn't really they're not coming from the from the pure appreciation of the miracle of existence, they're coming from a subtle comparison, the judgment of a content of a dream me versus other people.
Where is the one essence where me the life is expressing as me this way, as him this way, as other people this way. You know, the same life is singing as a singer, barking as a dog, breeding children and getting married and getting divorced as other is the same one life. There is no separation, really. But if I am separate and I never had children, then maybe I'll be resentful or maybe they are stupid because they didn't see true. And I've seen through. So see, when there is a differentiation, there is always a subtle way. Of, you know, like judging, comparing superiority, inferiority. Sometimes there is a grave or they got it better.
Sometimes there is anger. Oh, I got it better. The stupid is very, very subtle because you are really sitting in the heart and you're feeling the feeling. You don't necessarily bring it to the thinking and make it to a rigid judgment of of separation. But when you see where that feeling is coming from. You see, it doesn't really. Come from realization that it is just one life expressing as the ten thousand things in absolutely perfect manner. And yes, every unique, every pattern is unique. Your pattern might not go the way with, you know, like whatever the career or being a rock star and having millions of followers or whatever, but someone else did.
And they all happened within the. Consciousness that you are. So in in in direct experience, every pattern happens in you. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks, Kat. Yes. So it's John, isn't it? No, no. So thank you. Thank you. Just think about what you were saying. It sounds like I feel as if sometimes can experience that real desire for this. And. Want to be a non duality expert or. Yeah, this may be once I started seeing this, I was very enthusiastic about it and thought change should happen very quickly. You know, I'm not this, I'm not that I'm not the other thing. Just keep thinking about it and applying it and.
I. It becomes a bit of a trap, you know, not just judging other people, but judging yourself and I would be thinking that if I'm really into this, all my so-called defects of character should go. And, you know, I should have changed some sort of perfection. But it's I don't think it's really like that. It's like just relaxing into it and just be with the being and accepting the part you're playing in life, accepting how you are. This. Identity, so-called identity, how it appears, accepting it for what it is. And instead of being in a rush to think this would be some sort of change in me or seeing it in others, there should be some sort of change in them.
It's really those are all mind based concepts that I was heavily into thinking that, you know, I need to change. I need to get rid of this or that. And if I was had this non duality down, that would happen, but it's not like that. And people used to say to Bob, what should I do? And he'd say to nothing. And I think that was really funny. Like, there's two nothing. Yeah. If you are sort of. It takes a certain sort of earnestness, like seeing it all. And but you can't sort of race it like a bull of a gate in a way. And just yeah.
I feel sometimes. In in communities and non duality speaking, it's always geared up towards sort of love and it's not a criticism this at all because it is. I feel that I definitely feel it's not even what I would describe as love. It's just all encompassing when the you know, the mind goes quiet and everything is just cemented as a sort of one silhouette. It's I can feel that it's it's it's just pure depth. There's there's no like I'm feeling it now, I guess. But with the connection, things sort of drop away. But it it is just funny how the character comes back. And, you know, sometimes with a vengeance, it feels as well.
And like, yeah, judgment can can be there and you can sort of become incredibly bored with with everyone's responses, you can sort of see patterns in people. I don't know if that's something that came from the scene sort of behind the mind. But it came with a with a pattern recognition where I could sort of see what people are doing, how they're just on cycles. And, yeah, it's it's it's interesting. Sometimes, like you said, it just brings up more thoughts, I guess. And I guess that's where the trap is. And it's seeing the thoughts as a new version of self. I can hear people fall into the concept of like a spiritual self when they drop the the normal self and then they create basically a new character.
And I. I guess it's when I was listening to a conversation between John and say the Bob, it was just the simplicity of it where it's just just drop, drop everything doesn't and that's when I could really feel the difference where it's like, OK, so there isn't this perfect person that has to exist once the self is seen through the me is seen through. There is just, yeah, I guess I guess everything and all the conditioning and all the ugly stuff and you can't really flush it away as you want to. Yeah, that's that's that's. Yeah, the movement here is to maybe you don't feel them strongly enough, but the movement here is just to follow.
Like, things get followed, like regularly depends. Usually there's a couple of days break, things get followed and there's a million different ways that like the hang ups, the blocks show up, people call them shadows in Australia. Yeah, they just yeah, these things are noticed and they dissipate in various ways and then sometimes there's a casting around and that thing isn't there anymore and then life moves up a step, ramps up. That's kind of how those kind of things disappear here. There's just a sort of process of actually doing the cleaning up taking place. It's just happening as in the last couple of years. It's been happening fairly intensely.
It just just seems if a notion rises up to kind of explain it, it just seems that that way it's just a curiosity to see what more freedom is like, where the non-juggle, the cleaning up, the waking up moments show up more often when there's less stuff triggering and more cleaning up has happened. I don't know who proposed that first, but I heard in a Ken Wilber podcast about the waking up, cleaning up, growing up. Growing up is just kind of when you're triggered, when you're triggered in to by cleaning up, when something triggers you in the environment, just what kind of grown up place you go to or not.
So I knew someone who could have like days, weeks, months of just being in the moment when they're triggered. They're like, you know, they're basically like a Nazi outlook. You know, you know, you're fucking, you know, other race person, whatever. Whereas I'm like, damn, that was so annoying. Why did this patent do that again? You know, because, you know, no belief in your own stuff. But that's like every other thing. There's a lot of triggering and happening here. And just the post starts to waking up. Don't really don't seem to be the priority here. It's more the cleaning up. So there are more awake moments left to happen.
Yeah, I understand. Yeah. Thank you so much. Yeah. And I think we have we have Tony and Cheryl. Yeah. Okay. So you guys go and then Dino. Okay. So I'm thinking I've been sort of thinking about this thing of how people manifest love, you know, even when in their expressions, even when they're not very pleasant, it can be a manifestation of love. And it's an. It's a poetic thing. Like there is a liveness in that. And I'm thinking about your voices, your Darth Vader voices. That you mentioned, and I'm thinking that that's sort of appealing to me in some ways, but and I can see how that can cut through if you put a Mickey Mouse voice on the the voices that come through your head, how it would give it a different spin.
But there's a. There's a impulse. There are impulses in life that don't seem Mickey Mouse-ish. They are they're full of love and they don't deserve to be named or labelled. It's hard for me to minimise that because they're just manifesting and they seem alive and they seem important. Like the desire, the desire you speak of to see. Or they seem innocent and important. That's all I was going to say. So I don't know. I don't know quite. It's just that kind of thing of the voices or the manifestations and the connection between the identifying with those. Or not. But it is hard to put down an identity with something that does actually feel quite in a way, quite pure.
Yeah, and expansive. And it feels here. You don't even have to put words on it. Isn't it like that wave of love? If you don't even label it, that, oh, this is a longing. It means that I'm incomplete. It means I want something that is not. No, even just without any narrative, any interpretation, love in itself is like self explanatory, like is so obvious. Aha. That's why the whole dream just swoop you off your feet, takes the identity away. It just drowns you and melts you. Those magic moments, they don't need to be caged in explanations, grasped by the mind, defined by sense of luck.
But they also, in a way, I suppose they it's harder to put down maybe the identifying that can come along with them that might be quite subtle. You know, the the the the the the the impulse of the desire, it can be very subtly attached to the me and I can't give it a Mickey Mouse voice because it's it feels like dishonouring something. But maybe. See, you can't give anyone a Mickey Mouse voice. If there is inspiration, it will flop by itself. See, like there is a subtle differentiation of this is higher or this is more noble or this is better, so I won't be controlling this.
And this is lower. So I will be controlling that. Can you see suddenly there is an eye who has the power to distinguish this is morally superior, this morally inferior. None of it is you doing. You can find yourself in that humble surrender in which, oh, wow, this love expanding my chest, I don't want to change it. I surrender to it. And this judgment, oh, I do want to change it. I'll put my self-judgment, self-hatred into Mickey Mouse. That you that wants to surrender. And that you who wants to control is just another Mickey Mouse. There's no one there. It's just the wave of that overwhelming love.
And then there is a wave of overwhelming weather of a little bit of a reigning judgment going. But in in neither of those, there is anyone there. Can you see the subtlety in which, oh, yeah, this I don't want to defy. I don't want to control it because it is so profound. You can't. There is no you. It's beautiful. See, this is another layer of love and another layer of appreciation of that profound, beautiful, overwhelming oneness or cosmic union or even longing appreciation, but that appreciation. Naturally. But when it is translated by the mind, it says, I don't want to. I don't want to touch it, change it, contrive it, defile it as if I even could, as if I was even there.
To do it. When you get to the wrongness and authenticity of the feeling prior to putting any words on it. Not only. You still don't want to do it. You can't do it. You don't even you're not even preoccupied with doing it because this is what we learned early in life as children, when something gets too big emotionally, too big. We named the monster. We give it a label so it doesn't scare us much. We run away from love much faster than from any other emotion. We quickly label it quickly, quickly. So now I feel like, OK, I know what it is. I can control it.
Yeah. But I don't want to because it's beautiful. Yes, but I've already labeled it because it's so overwhelming. I'm going to lose myself. I'm going to die into it. Well, so what? Just die into it. Dying in love. Wow. Bob used to laugh about it for all nine years. He says, yes, at this age, you know, it's kind of risky. I'm happy to die this way. He didn't. But yeah, but. Really, the thing is, the sense of even not wanting to somehow contain it. Is already bringing it to the language, see the urge to express it is the urge to diminish feeling it, because if you feel it, feel it without expressing it.
It's like imagine feeling the volcano of anger without yelling and screaming and throwing and breaking the plates or whatever. You know, there are people who get that level of dysregulation and they feel if I don't express it, I'm just going to explode. Same with love. Sometimes it gets so incredibly powerful that you have to die. That's it. Near death experiences. Are all about that. But it can't be expressed because the mind is already switched off. But as long as the mind is functioning, it tries to put it in words limited. Limit that incredibly overwhelming sense of interconnectedness and cosmic union with the whole universe, the bliss of being limited by caging it with words.
Yes, but, you know, I have to protect it. It doesn't need protecting. It just needs experiencing. But I'm really, really glad to see that you actually, you know, it's only a matter of time when it just. Thank you, the depths that, you know, is some some somewhat it feels also, you know, that like I'm training the machine to allow more and more voltage of that unconditional love. It feels like no, no, no. I have to I have to speed it up because it's going to just burn the whole fuses. So, OK, I allow it a little bit and then a little bit more and a little bit more.
Well, trust me, let it blow the fuses. You're not going to die. The mind is going to burn, but the body is going to survive it. Thank you. Mm hmm. Thank you. Do you want to read the comment? Time. Just. Emmanuel said earlier morning, morning light and blue skies and equanimous mind to you all. And you said, how is it that you have more clarity about what this is that I do? There's no uncertainty here about that. I am. I am. But that's it. That's it. I don't know anything more than that. Just this. The rest is just vocabulary going expression is just an expression.
And Anthony says, let me just what helped me was some stuff that John Wheeler brought up about the non duality circus. Most speakers can't bring you to the full stop. I was still believing so many non dual concept spread around by people. I looked up to nothing wrong with it, but being able to drop all concepts is vital. And thanks. And Emmanuel says more giggling, more crying, fewer words. What is the feeling? I think that was in response to things earlier. And Anthony says the Kiryu to Kiryu. Exhaustion is absolutely natural when there's subtly a feeling, subtly a feeling of a of doing to be present.
There's really no one that can do this. I find the effort falls away and it unfolds. Exhaustion is the me. I'm hanging on. I'm off to the last. Yeah. And look, we started about five minutes. Give us a summary. Come on. No, that's all right. I've got plenty to say nothing now. Like I had plenty to say all the time. Like, I don't know what to say really at all. But it's just that one essence, like the last few words that Cheryl was sharing about this, this innocence, like the real innocence is the innocence in the whole shebang. There's an innocence to everyone and everything.
And every action, every word, every thought, every bit of the appearance isn't being done by anyone, and it's an appearance of nothing appearing as something. So the actual innocence itself is and the beauty and is in the whole show. And there is no separation between the me and the you and this machine and that machine, and they're all machines of that one essence expressing. They've all got the same power source, expressing themselves through an infinite array of conditions and biochemistry and cosmic energies and whatever you want to call it and and genetics and more than that. So the whole universe is creating. Each expression and each expression is a unique expression of that innocence.
It's expressing itself beautifully. So therefore, there is no one getting something and no one not getting. There's no superior or inferior or higher or lower. It's all that one essence. And the only thing dividing and stopping and and seemingly making it seem is that it's not that way is is the thought I believed in thought, not a thought because the thought itself is absolutely innate. It has no no power unless it's sort of believed to be the truth. So so thoughts and like having a still mind or quiet mind, all thoughts drop. Oh, what a beautiful place. And then they resume all this is bad.
No, no. The resumption of thoughts or the continuing of thoughts or endless stream of thoughts are all. Are all that that same one essence expressing his thoughts and and when they're not believed in, because how could you be limited to a thought, no matter how profound or brilliant? Or or real or heartfelt a thought or a feeling is is is that one true? Which means that the other ones are false or this one more real or this one more correct than that one? No. The innocence is the whole expression or thoughts or feelings. Every emotion, every aspect of this whole human spectrum and more that is inconceivable and perceivable is is part of this is is that whole expression is the thatness is the I am this not the I am, but the I am as the whole shebang expressing as that.
And, you know, interesting. The whole meeting was an expression of that expressed through these words, through these notions, through these seemingly sharing and and questions and answers and yeah, so relax, there's nothing anyone needs to do. And. And curious is thanks for the reply. I I can't see the chat, but I really appreciate the words. It's so true to me. Still clinging on. Thank you. Yeah, thank you, everyone. Thank you, everyone who was with us here in the room and in the room on Facebook and for comments and contributions and and tips. And that's that. Lots of love. Remember that you are even if you don't remember, you still are.
And we'll see you next time. Bye bye.