This transcript was made by speech-recognition software, so names and some words may be misheard. The recording is the original: watch on YouTube.
The basics of nonduality is the assertion that the title of Nisargadatta's book is I Am That but really the Mahavakya which is a great mantra doesn't say I Am That, it says That I Am, Mahavakya, That I Am, so it points out to the awareness that I am, I know that I am, there is awareness of existence here and it also says in the ancient scriptures Satchitananda awareness of being is bliss. So often the whole quest for enlightenment is the quest for bliss. I know that I am, that's for granted, can't deny it, everyone knows that. But where is the bliss? Where is the pleasure?
Where is the ecstasy? So this is where Bob would invite people to actually see what is obscuring the sense of appreciation, the love of being. Being, knowing, loving to be. The love of being is the appreciation of existence. Appreciation of that miraculous, amazing capacity to see, to hear, to taste, to touch, to smell, to imagine, to fantasize, to plan, to dream. It's an incredible capacity. But instead of actually appreciating that capacity, attention is usually swallowed by the content of imagination. It doesn't often complain about, oh, I don't like what I'm seeing right now unless it compares it with what it should be, which is imagination.
It doesn't seem, the present moment is usually not so bad unless the thought comes and evaluates it in relation to some mental images and projections. So what actually obscures the natural love of being or appreciation of existence or even acknowledging the miraculousness of seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling and the capacity for imagining all those amazing capacities is the content of imagination. So it is the fact that I'm going to get old and die and sick or maybe some of my family members doesn't like me or maybe is at the brink of dying or maybe something bad has happened to me in the past and I can't stop thinking about it.
Or maybe there is a future that can of course always go wrong. And that obsession about that which is not happening, engaging, being engaged with the imagination, with that sixth sense to the extent in which all the other senses are marginal, almost neglected. And suddenly now we are not living from that present miraculousness, the bliss of being, the appreciation, the love of existence, but from the translation of it. Instead of living from the heart, we live from the mind, which is frankly translation of that raw energy, raw energy of existence, of aliveness into the seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling and thinking. Thinking, which is imagining.
So now, instead of appreciation what I see, I'm looking at things, labeling them, comparing them with what I would see instead, and I suffer. Instead of appreciating the things that are happening right now, the raw energy of appreciation gets translated into, again, imagining what I would have instead, focusing on the luck and suffering. Self image, instead of having, and of course, this is a biocomputer, it does have certain limitations, it doesn't fly. Some biocomputers can't cook or do other things, have limitations in the dream. To have a healthy navigational skills, evaluating how fast your car can drive, on which road it can appropriately behave to its capacity, not exceeding it, not breaking it.
It's quite healthy, it's nothing wrong with self-evaluation, but self-esteem comes from identifying with self-evaluation. If I know that this particular vehicle can't fly off the building, it doesn't have to be that, oh, I'm not good enough, I'm piece of shit, I'm unworthy to be alive because I can't fly. So this is where the difference comes from, like using the mind to be able to assess the environment and survive in the environment just like any other animal to the best of its capacity versus being completely swallowed. The whole stream of alive, of aliveness, of attention, completely enslaved and trapped, hijacked by the mind, which for its own purposes creates the avatar, creates the mini me, the idea of self that has to control the environment to be safe and to survive.
And again, idea of its own, it's not wrong, it comes from love of being, which is a love of being safe and surviving and thriving, it's nothing wrong. But if that is taken to be reality, if we lose sight of the fact, if we lose sight from the fact that this is just one of the capacities, it is just one of the capacities rather than the ultimate reality, then of course the suffering sits in and it looks like I am trapped in my identity and I'm limited, I'm in a cage of concepts and literally it is a cage made of concepts. It is the, they are the concepts that I've learned alongside.
I've learned when I was growing up, I was told I was a person, I was told I was female. First I was a little girl, then I was a teenager, whatever, all of that came from a language model. It has been installed just like any other program that you installed in your computer or your phone. If you have warm and loving family, you may afford a program of trusting people that remind you your parents. If you had a traumatic childhood, you may have a program of absolutely doubting everything and mistrusting and distrusting everyone. You may have a program of pleasing people to survive, a program of kindness, a program of bullying.
It depends on how the environment shaped you, that survival strategies will be developed. And again, seeing them for what they are, this is the bio-computer, bio-machine which enables the life essence, the omnipresence to see, hear, taste, touch and smell. So it is essential that it stays alive. It's nothing wrong with the survival instinct, with love of being appearing as desire for safety or even for power if that brings sense of safety. But identifying I am this vehicle, therefore no matter how much safety I can convince myself I have, the future is unknown. I can't ever be ultimately safe. Well, people say you will when you're in the grave, but today we bury people, no graves.
So the same with power, no matter how much power you have, you can lose it tomorrow. You can lose your life. If you are convinced you are some little mini me trapped in a cage of concept of the body or even worse, you are the body itself. Well, there is no ultimate safety for the body. The body is going to deteriorate. There are fantasies that, oh, you know, people, the scientists even discover ways to extend life 2,000 years. Okay, make it 10,000. It's still going to expire. So, believing yourself to be your car may be helpful when you are driving on the highway and you look at the signs on the road, slow down or road bump or turn.
Yes. Okay. I am slowing down. Okay. I'm going faster. Oh, yeah. Okay. I am stopping. While the driver of the car is not moving at all. It's just a little movement on the steering wheel and that's it. But the car is moving fast. So, as the car is slowing down and yet you still say I'm slowing down or I'm moving faster. Perfectly appropriate for navigational purposes. Perfectly appropriate when I say I'm going to the shops, I'm going to the restaurant. Absolutely nothing wrong. However, if I start believing myself I'm my car, well, there are institutions for that. That's not appropriate. That's not true. And am I really?
And this is where non-duality differs from all the other systems, philosophical schools and non-duality in the different traditions, in the different religious and philosophical schools exist underneath all the structures and rules that accumulated later. So, this is not to say, oh, this is better than anything else. No, it is all pervading. But what it differs from the systems that have been organized, that tell you what you have to do, how you have to live your life, how many hours of meditation per day or per week or what sort of mantras or even practicing kindness or all the other things. They all presume that there is a little person who has a choice to do that and who has a duty to control themselves, their reactions, their thoughts and their bodies.
Non-duality invites you to have a look and see for yourself. And you could say, okay, but if there is no one there to look, who is going to look? Who cares? Do you want to see or not? The paradox of pointing is here at this point. Yes, there is no one to look. But before you actually see that there is no one to see, you have to look. Yes, but who is to look? Okay. Start wherever you believe you are. If you believe you are a little person looking, okay, make that believe little person look and find its own location. See if you can locate that little person anywhere.
And if you can, wonderful. See who has done the locating. I would obviously not be the same one. So non-duality invites people to actually see how the whole machine functions, how the mind functions, how the world is constructed, how the world is projected. What world is this particular machine seeing through the projections and programs that have been installed through the conditioning that that machine has received? What sort of dream am I seeing? Is it the same dream as you are seeing or Dean is seeing or anyone else is seeing? The assumption is, yes, of course, the world is the agreed upon reality is solid and I am born into the world and I leave for whatever 50 or 100 years.
And then I leave and the world still stays as it was before, maybe slightly changed because, of course, the upgrades in the in the dream. But this is an agreed upon reality, which is our nowadays religion, the religion of science, the religion of the conceptual overlay defining the world as something outside of myself, which I'm visiting. I'm a visitor on the traveler coming and going rather than direct experience, which will tell you that you are always here and the world is coming and going as you go to sleep. The world goes as you wake up. The world's world returns as you move from your bedroom to your kitchen.
The bedroom disappears and the kitchen appears, but you, the consciousness, are always here. You never go anywhere. But hey, this doesn't make any sense. It's better to operate. It's better to navigate. If I take the map of reality, which is solid and stable, the road is always stable. The countries are established, the lakes, the rivers, and I am the mobile. I'm moving vehicle. That's correct. Within that dream, it is more convenient. We can go with that in the dream. When you dream at night and you dream of flying, the world, your kitchen, your bedroom, they may all be gone. Your body may all be gone.
Or your body might be lying down on bed, but it's gone in a dream. You're not aware of it in the dream. And you have another body that is lighter and it's flying. And it's flying over some territories that haven't been present when you were awake. So which body is right? Which dream is right? And what is the common denominator with both? Isn't the presence of consciousness? Isn't it that I am here? I am first. And then this room appears and this computer and those people and those cats. And then when I fall asleep, another world appears. But I am always here. The consciousness, the presence.
Now, within this dream, there is a mental convention, the conventional sort of reality saying that I'm a person. This is my vehicle. This is what I'm navigating. I'm female. Within the night's dream, I usually, I'm not quite sure whether I'm male or female because it doesn't really concern me. I'm interacting with the environment that is appearing in consciousness. Sometimes I'm flying. Sometimes I'm running or swimming or dancing. But I'm not that concerned with what I am and I don't quite remember my name or my age. In other dreams, I may remember and that name and the age may be different. But the consciousness, that never changes.
It is always here. It's always present. Every time. There is a looking back. The consciousness is always present. I think I forgot to record it. That's okay. Yes. I always. Yes. Unfortunately, the machine is aging. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. So, that is that really in regards to non-duality. Instead of associating or identifying yourself with the vehicle that is experiencing the environment. Instead of assuming the map, the mental map that has been created about the world and about this avatar in the world. Instead of assuming them to be the territory. See what is known directly in the direct experience. Are you appearing in time or the time is appearing in you?
Were you born in a particular year growing up and dying perhaps in some alleged future? Or is the whole timeline including the big bank and the history and the whole history of religion and science and conspiracies appearing in you the moment attention. We would like to invite you to contact your team with the information and the information that we want to provide access into the information. It is a tremendous opportunity. It touches the potentiality, so the field of knowing, the Satchitananda, the being, awareness of being, and the lightfulness of it is always here, and if the other two factors, like the reality was presented in Advaita Vedanta as five elemental factors, those five factors, three were describing three aspects, of one indivisible reality, and two, the illusion, the Maya, the projection, like three were describing the pure, space-like, sky-like, reflective surface, or a mirror, Satchitananda, being, awareness of being, and delightfulness, or contentment in existence, and the two others, name and form, and shape, and pattern, and pattern, name and form, those two factors, Nama, Rupa, were describing the projection, the reflection, the clouds on the sky, the reflections in the mirror, the patterns, shapes, and forms, all appearing within that consciousness.
So the consciousness is the reality. The way the consciousness transforms itself and vibrates into those patterns, shapes, and forms, is this unreality, because it's fleeting, because it's fleeting, it's dreamy, it's here now, it's not going to be here in a hundred years, a thousand years, or even a hundred milliseconds, it's going to change, things about the body are going to change, the words are going to change, the other experiences and expressions, everything is going to change, but the consciousness stays, it doesn't change, it never changes, it accommodates everything, it allows everything, it allows pain, it allows pain and pleasure equally, it allows the sense of insecurity, and the superiority, and inferiority, and past and future, and every possible expression and appearance that it could possibly, that could be conceived of, and it all comes from nothing.
Is the buddha saying of the emptiness becoming form, it doesn't really, it stays emptiness, but it appears as forms, it appears as the dream, just like the dream at night, same the daydream, which is a little bit more solid and substantial, but only because it's happening right now. Because when the reality of the night dream is happening right now, it's solid and substantial also. And I wonder if we have any comments here, Sandy says, oh, so enjoying this morning spiel, thank you, Sandy. And you could consider joining us on Zoom too, and say a word or two, I always enjoy your contribution too. And question.
And anyone else would like any word, have a saying? Cliffy, you speaking, you want a mic? No. No? Yes. Yes. Okay. There's not much to say. I was listening to your spiel, Kat, and it's very interesting. And that all I can think of is just this, and nothing else. And then the mind comes in and spins stories or takes our attention away from just pure being just pure being with what is. And the mind comes in and spins a story. And we go into that one. And then we leave that one. And we go into another one. But then just bringing it back to just this and nothing else is where the peace is, because the mind is always, the mind is always turmoil and conflicting and ever changing.
There's nothing wrong with that. But realize that it's always on the background of justice and nothing else. That's about it for now. Yeah. That's brilliant. That's perfect. Because that's always, that brings us back home to this ever-present, ever-present moment of now-ness, of beingness. That, you know, again, whenever you look, when is it not now? It's always now. And just this and nothing else. Even if within that space of now, there is a projection of the world, of the dream, and the dream, and the dream within the dream, and the fantasy about the future, which is not happening right now, but is present as a dream, as a fantasy, or the childhood trauma, which is not happening right now, but is present as a memory, which is just another dream.
Just this, nothing else, nothing excluded. And yet, all right now. No future, no past. The future and past are the mental constructs right now. They only exist, they only appear to exist, when believed, just like monsters under the bed, but shed a light of consciousness. Where is the light of consciousness? Where is the past? When you don't think about it? Where is it? Look at that monster. Where is it? Shed the light of consciousness on it. Is it even there? Where is the future? I like the monsters under the bed. The mind likes making up monsters. It's usually me that's the monster in some way.
Just like me. You're so right. Yeah. I'm having trouble doing something else. Is that the same me that has to go somewhere else this afternoon? Or the same me that's got to fill in the tax return tomorrow? We string all these ideas together into this me with all these so-called problems in the future or in the past. And they're all just, and they're all just, and they're all just, and they're all just ideas occurring in that timeless, spaceless presence. It's just come back to that and where are all those ideas? Beautiful. Yeah. Yeah. And this is again a core of the investigation. The monster called me.
The monster that me that is not good enough, not smart enough, not pretty enough, that is vulnerable, that is going to get It's going to get hurt. It's going to get, it's going to get disliked. It's going to get rejected. And what is it? Again, this is the part of the map, you know, just like the body is like a car on the road. The navigational system in the car. Sometimes I had a friend. I mean, he's still my friend, but he had his navigational system set in the voice of the dark wader from the Star Wars. That was so funny. It would speak with him.
It would answer him. And it was a serious monster navigating his car. So that navigational system, that me, you could set it to whatever voice you want. You know, you have all those NLP tricks when you can change your inner voice to the voice of a Mickey Mouse. And then the inner judge becomes laughable. It's almost, this, this is really when you look at the nature of the me, what is it apart from the narrative voice yapping constantly commenting, humming the past melodies, regurgitating the problems. And it is almost, and it is almost, in many cases, addicted to having something to chew on. One problem solves, it picks up another one.
It just keeps entertaining. And when it is hostile, well, it may cause suicidal ideations. When it is kind and light, we don't mind. Sometimes, you know, like Bob was asked that question many times. So don't you have the narrative? Don't you have that voice in the head? He said, oh, sometimes it, it, it's choose on something, but it's like a background sound. It doesn't matter. It doesn't bother. Sometimes it's completely quiet and there's nothing happening. And sometimes it's singing. Sometimes we would get up and we would hum the same melody in the background. And one of us would suddenly sing it out loud and we would burst laughing.
Oh, you, you sang the same thing. Yep. So it happens when you are in tune. So this voice is not a problem. Even the content of what the voice is narrating is not a problem. It's a program that has been installed. It's that navigational system that has been set to a particular voice in particular tone. Believing this is who I am. I am this voice. Therefore, what I'm saying is true. This is the source of suffering. I am the consciousness within me. The voice sometimes is humming a melody. Sometimes there is no voice and sometimes it's chewing, but I'm always here, whether the voice is there or the voice is not there.
I'm always here. And like you say, leave the me, you know, the me that is going to the shops, the me that is interacting with my ex-wife, the me that is interacting with my kids. Is it even the same character? Because when you ask those people, they will say, oh, no, no, my dad is not like, oh, my ex-husband is not like that. You know, they'll, they'll see different conceptual image of you or people, you know, like people you serve when you are in a, when you are MP, you know, like, come on, they will have completely different outlook at what you are or who you are or different personality.
And you will have different concept of every one of them, because again, this navigational system needs the map and it constantly creates the map. Go on. I was just thinking that you appear as a different character in your mind and you appear as a different character to other people. But you have different perceptions on other people too. Like before I got to know this guy, I used to think he was a real, that's a real crook, you know, that he was a crooked politician. Doesn't matter, he can't trust you, we can't trust anything he says. Then I got to know him and I found him to be a delightful, pretty, you know, honest sort of character.
Nothing wrong with him after the imagination conjured up something else. And you think of people in your life and they're really just a concept to you in a way at that time. And that concept can change. So all these ideas we have about what's solid about our imagined personality or body shape or what, how we appear is ever changing, that we seize on it and try to make it something. And the other thing about the voice in the head, sometimes it's very loud and you think, okay, right here, what's wrong with right now without a thought? Just calm my mind, but the mind wants to chatter.
It wants to, wants to come back in there. And now I'm always like today because I'm running late. I'm always telling myself, hurry up, keep them, keep moving, you know, but that's something I picked up in my childhood, you know, brought up in a family that like that sort of, you know, no resting, keep moving, not a hurry, running late, all that sort of stuff. Yeah, you can see how this is the software and this is, this is the software that likely gets you where you are. And you have no second. Sure. Just another example of the voice, voice in the head sounding differently. Like I probably said before that, like, if I watch a lot of dramas or something, suddenly it pops up that the eye face image that pops up here is, you know, young Korean male or something, because I've been watching a lot of that drama.
And the other day I noticed, like, the voice pop was one of the character's voices that popped up of, and a thought was that character's voice on it popped out. And, yeah, I had another example, but it's gone. Yeah, okay. Yeah. Mirror neurons. I think Dino has some contributions. From Anthony. Hi, Anthony. Can't help but bring up my dad. He must start every day with a kind of samadhi meditation. He says it's to remind himself of where it's all arising from. I can't help but wonder why he needs to bother when it's always pretty evident, once you see, which he has. Feels like he's just a bliss junkie.
Lots of laughs. I suppose there's nothing wrong without the thought. I just want him, I just want for him what he's looking for. Hmm. Yeah. Yeah, what a lovely addiction. Bliss junkie. You go. Come and on. Why not? Yeah. Yeah, you can see that tendency. And thank you, Anthony. You see, you know, that tendency is part of loving to be. I think I mentioned, you know, like if you look at the motivation of every body, mind, machine to always preserve life in every possible way. It's a very, very basic binary system, the loving to be, you know, distinguishing what is a higher likelihood of survival.
Pain or pleasure? And then it goes, sometimes it may grow like cancer. Pleasure. Okay, so the pleasure of having a drink. Now I'm going to have another one and another one and another one and another one and machine gets addicted. Bob was down that path and didn't take you to a nice places. But it had to happen this way because, again, this is the whole brilliant, brilliant, brilliant biocomputer which has the capacity to self-regulate and learn down that path. That's which, let's face it, you know, he had a couple, I think I wrote about it in the biography, a couple of his mates who actually ended up in AA at the same time as him, left AA at the same time as him and didn't make it back.
They ended up one jumping off the window in a hotel in one of the prominent hotels in Melbourne, another one shoot himself. So it is not to say that this brilliant intelligence is always going to preserve life and succeeded that. No, quite the opposite, every single body is highly likely going to end up in ashes, bags to nothingness. The agenda of staying alive is also to the extent of the, you know, it's not that important really to stay alive. It's, it's as important as it is easy to be achieved. So the being drawn towards pleasure and comfort and safety and avoiding the pain and discomfort and danger and fear is the, is the algorithm that, that drives towards survival.
And as much as it is possible in that spontaneous unfolding, in that, in unpredictability of the 10,000 things arising simultaneously, this body mind and every other body mind, including the ant and bee and mosquito will navigate to survive for the sake of experiencing an expression, for the sake of that life essence, which is potentiality. Seeing, seeing, hearing, and tasting and touching, smelling, and I see, um, uh, is it John that is unmuted? Would you like to jump in John and say something? Oh, I didn't realize I was unmuted. No, that was an accident. I'm sorry. Yeah, but maybe that's, uh, maybe that's a lucky accident on the one.
It's not an accident. Well, I, I, I was curious. Um, you know, I, I, I understand the, I, the, you know, that this already is, and that's a central, um, oh, start my video. Yeah. Um, I, I understand one of the central. This is that, you know, we're talking about something that's already going on and it's illusion that, you know, keeps us from recognizing this. But for you in your time with Bob, I remember you mentioning some initial frustration and not clicking and, you know, what are you talking about here? And I was curious about the turning point for you and just how that looked, you know?
Yeah, yeah, that's a great question. And that's, you know, a lot of people that I talk with and I have quite a few calls every week, sometimes few every day, is a lot of people is looking for a breakthrough, for defining moment with the fireworks going off. Like yesterday I was a person and today I'm the eternity of now. It doesn't work this way. And especially when you ask how it was for you, because the you is this navigational system, is that Siri that is speaking, you know, the speaking source of the microphone, the avatar. That is not who I am. That is my speaker.
This is my speaker. I am alive speaking through that, through that microphone of that, of that body mind. And I have always been that though for the first 41 years of my life, not maybe when I was a year old, I didn't remember anything, but for the first few decades of my life, that life essence speaking through that microphone was completely trapped in the cage of concepts, in that mental image, in the believing that I was a person, that I was a mini me. That there was, I life, fooled myself effectively, to believe that I am something else, I am something small. The hide and seek, in which God has hidden so well that it can't find itself, even though it's all there is.
And then, as the moment, as I was coming to Bob's meetings, and before that I had the introduction to non-duality in India, and I was sitting with different Zen Sanghas and being in monasteries, I had moments of mind going quiet. So, the sense of being separate, me dissolving, and yet, later on when the me, and sometimes it would dissolve for like weeks, but there was no realization that it dissolved, because the realization that it dissolved comes from the mind which is already back in. Oh shit, I didn't have a problem for three weeks. I didn't feel like there was anybody there. Oh, I want to go back.
But this navigational system, which again is believed to be me, that can never go anywhere. It is just a speaker, it is just a narrative program. But what is registering that narrative program has never gone anywhere. So, that breakthrough moment that I had in December 2015, when I was sitting with Bob on one and only individual call that I had with him, was the realization that it can't be realized, because the person who is trying to realize it has no existence. So, there can't be a breakthrough, there can't be an enlightenment for that which doesn't exist. So, suddenly, the dropping off all the idea, or all waiting for the breakthrough, all waiting for something else in the future, all seeking, and all concepts of incompleteness, all identification with that fear of rejection and that vulnerability, phew, completely dropped away.
But hey, it has dropped away before, and it wasn't present for weeks altogether, or for days altogether, or for moments in meditation altogether. But it wasn't conscious. It's dissolved the way it dissolves every night when you go to sleep. And it on autopilot re-established itself when you get out of the meditation, or out of the retreat, or when you wake up in the morning. But this time, it somehow, somewhat happened, and it's been seen through all along. Oh shit, this conceptual image can't ever become anything, grasp anything, understand anything, achieve anything, become anyone. And how could I ever believe that was who I am? How could that possibly be unseen?
It was seen with the clarity that before, the same thing was experienced. The same thing was experienced when you were two years old. Just the pure, basic, ordinary awareness in which the life, the whole dream unfolds. Nothing has changed in perception. But the idea that I am something other than that whole field of gaze, the whole field of seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling, or any idea that I am anything at all, couldn't hold water anymore, couldn't be believed again, couldn't be unseen. Since then on, there is no idea that could possibly be believed of what I am. I don't know what I am. But I know that I am.
And this is the secret, that I am. And that I always knew. But it was so clogged up and covered up and piled up with the shit that I knew that I was. That I believed that I knew that I was. I was absolutely certain that I was a woman. I was from Poland. I was not good enough. I was feeling rejection. I was vulnerable. I was fragile. I was susceptible to this, that, and the other. All that stuff might have applied to the vehicle, to the car. I could know that my car was green and my car had 300 horsepower or what, what not.
But what does it have to do with the power of the omnipresence, with the omnipotence, which doesn't have qualities? So now I am that, and I always been that, which has no qualities. And I don't believe I am the costume through which that which has no qualities experience and expresses itself. And yet still, there is absolute clarity that this costume can't fly the jet plane, it can't fly off the buildings, and it doesn't cause any sense of inferiority. Because it isn't who I am. It has limitations. It keeps forgetting shit. Oh yeah, go for it. Just briefly, I thought of another example of the no, the thingy before.
Hang on, what was it? Oh yeah, like if you watch movies or series that are of a culture vastly different from your own, and then you just find a whole lot of concepts that might have disappeared out of our culture, you know, 100 years ago, whatever. But then you suddenly come, you know, hear a phrase coming out of your mouth, and you know it comes from the movie. Like, I'd say, oh, you're being too greedy, like, and it comes from an Asian movie or something. That's just not what I've been brought up with. And then, yeah, and then you can just see how, if these things are disembodied, then how the stuff that we're brought up with, you know, or come from somewhere else, but we've been too oblivious to notice.
You know, also just, yeah, kind of unattached notions that, yeah, appear. Yeah. Yeah, just that question of when it happened for you sort of thing. That was a great answer, Kat. Inspired me to think about that. Was there a turning point for me? Yeah. In the story, looking back. I don't think so, but I think it sort of happened gradually that something that Bob said that really helped was, you know, you've heard all about this stuff. Why don't you, you know, try living from that position? Wow. Just experiment with trying living from that, just being. And I, more and more, I'd do that, but I'd often hear people, and I used to do it too.
In my mind, I had the habit of, I've got to find this awareness, you know, once I get there, it'll all be okay, whatever, as if it was a destination for me to get there. And then I realized that's, that is the problem itself that I'm the, the searcher that's searching or I'm going to discover something that's going to make it a change. When, you know, I think, oh, I've just got to get back to the beingness or being here and now, but that very concept is, is, is the problem that there is someone there that's searching. There's someone there that's thinking all this, all these thoughts and doing it all.
And when you suddenly see that it, it, it melts away. And, and it just happens more and more that you re that realization comes and something else Bob used to say. It was okay. Well then try living the old way, try living the way you used to think. And once you've seen it, you can't do that really. I mean, you will, for me, I, I find that I'm in and out of the dream all the time, but I know it's a dream and I don't get so caught up in it as I used to, but I can't go back to living in the dream anymore.
It's just too, it's just unimaginable to be there now. So yeah, I don't know if there's, there's no point in the, in the so-called story and I'm not even the story anymore. I have to think to imagine what the story was now, any realization. And that's, that's brilliant because actually statistically majority, majority of situations, according to one of the guys that does that did a research on that is just that gentle peeling away the layers of lies. And slowly, slowly, just discarding the false, discarding the false. And it doesn't, it is not to say that, you know, like, Oh, I get caught up in the dream.
I know it's just a vocabulary, but look, you know, Bob and I, we were totally, totally attending to a dream, just like every car on every road, attends to every road mark. And this is just the, this is just the way that the life experiences and expresses itself. So, and, and, and even like relating to other people, we would have conceptual images of people and those conceptual images of people would be our projections. And we would know that this is the way I see the person is just the way that machine is capable to see, you know, if I was blind, I would see it differently.
If I had different conditioning, different philosophy, different beliefs, different experiences, I would see things differently. But within the dream, that's how it functions, that's how it works. And the dream is convincing and it, and it should be, this is the, this is, it's, you know, like the, the better movie you watch, the more convinced you are that this is happening, the more forgetting, the more like, really, you want to go to a fantastic symphony orchestra concert and forget that you are even a body. That's right. That's right. That's the point. And we have Jane has the hand up. Would you like to unmute? Oh, yes.
Is that the person who just been speaking? Is that Cliff? Is that his name? It is Cliff. Thank you. I always like his wisdom. I guess age, age, age helps, doesn't it? You learn some things over time. I guess one issue for me is that a lot of, a lot of the teachers, non-dual teachers and literature I've seen, well, they would say, just be and don't seek. Well, I don't know how I would classify the time I spend watching videos or reading things. But for me, I don't think it's seeking. I think that the onion has been unpeeling or been peeling off over time. But for me, I need and want to watch and like listening now because I seem to need to be reminded of who I am because I have been so, because I'm old and I've been so conditioned over so many years.
So it's sort of not exactly seeking, it is seeking, but it's, but I know what you're saying, but I need that constant reminder at the moment. Would you like to comment on that, please? Sure. See, we have, we have a lot of conversations on our evening Zooms that has been brought up by someone who is joining us that, you know, there is almost like an Advaita police sort of a behavior saying, oh, you should stop it. As if there was a you that had the power of control over starting or stopping seeking, or you should not speak unless you are enlightened. As if there was anybody there to be enlightened, those ideas, and those people apparently who bring that stuff to another meeting that I'm not hosting, but it's happening.
Those, those people apparently segregate and separate those enlightened from those unenlightened and those enlightened are allowed to speak. Those unenlightened are not allowed to speak and those unenlightened should stop seeking or should even stop showing up on those zoom meetings where the poor bugger wouldn't even have anyone to speak to. The truth of the matter is you find yourself here. That's where life brought you. Now the mind is offering you a story. Oh, I'm here because I'm still seeking. Oh, something wrong with me. I hate myself. Okay. That's one story. Now the mind can offer you another story. I'm here because, well, you know, I kind of, and I'm a, I'm a junkie.
Like, you know, Anthony was saying his dad, you know, I just love the energy of pointing. It just brings me back from a junkie to my heart. Yeah. And this is another story, but this, you know, junkie may kind of sound a little bit, uh, pejorative, a little bit ugly, but, you know, you can have another story told. I am here because this is where my feet are. Yet another story may say, well, who and what and why would make me need to justify where I am. It's always the mind that wants the story. How about I am here because I'm here. There is no story of seeking, being enlightened, being unenlightened, needing reminder, not needing reminder.
I'm here. Full stop. This is the experience. I am here. Doesn't have to have. See, I have those, those zoom groups that are evening groups, which are in America, middle of the night in Europe morning, where we have like up to 20, 25 people. Sometimes half of the group doesn't need any pointing. They are there because it's just beautiful to bask in the sunlight of spirit and celebrate aliveness. There's no seeking there. We all pointing. Everyone has a voice. Everyone who has clarity. See, like here, Cleve is speaking. It's not, not just you. Quite a few people appreciate anything. He says, or Dean or Tony.
And even Heyman was contributing. I hope you will do again. And maybe Ben and any one of you here. The truth is, it's a one life. It's one essence. It speaks, you know, through you, Jane, it speaks as questions. And I can't tell you how valuable is that, that the questions are coming up and directing the conversation. But it's the same essence is the same life. And now the mind offers the story according to its conditioning. Oh, there is something wrong with me. I shouldn't be here. I shouldn't. I shouldn't. I heard one or two pointers. I shouldn't be seeking. I shouldn't show up on zoom.
This. It's not that it is a proof that there is something wrong with you because you show up on the symphony orchestra where all the beautiful instruments are singing the glory of aliveness of God. Some life expression shows up as painting or music and some life expression show up as appreciation of the life essence and if that somehow resonates and touches your heart, someone else may be reading a poetry at that point why is that better or worse than actually just basking that yes okay reminders that's what the mind has to say but really the reminders are to resonate in the heart the mind can grasp it I can and then I will gladly do that with pleasure I can debunk every single pointer that is put to the mind and then again we often discuss it on the evening meetings debunking the pointers can be helpful killing the Buddha can be helpful but let it work through first see through the pointer then chuck it like the you know the Buddhist analogy or metaphor of having a boat crossing the river and leaving the boat behind not carrying it up to the mountains so the pointers even the reminders are not for the mind the mind the mind the mind is the uncoding the words but the resonation the familiarity the ah yeah right see if there is ah yeah right it means the knowing is there and it's always there there's no one who doesn't know that they are that they are conscious they are here.
Yeah my experience of coming to Bob's was a bit like you were saying Jane so like for the first year or so it was it was a bit fuzzy I don't think the delivery was that perfect or clear all of that you know it wasn't I've got quite a logical brain it wasn't all placed out nicely but by the end of the year the notion came up I think a lot of my mind might just be what's there when you're not thinking about it I'll just go with that experience had enough of that experience here and there especially with some online transmissions from non-jural people like um Nirmala for example you know would leave like three minutes of that emptiness you know that sort of thing so um yeah still fuzzy but yeah basically next several years I just came for the post-its of enlightenment you know basically it was like yeah oh yeah yeah and we thought oh yeah and then you know things leave you know it's the post-it is there and the things leave it's basically and that's how it ever is you know some post-it pops up in the universe and things leave um you know it's a reminder process um and the other thing I wanted to say was about um I think someone mentioned about how yeah how we don't really ever understand the perspective from elsewhere and the miscommunication with that but I've got a I was just going through some old notes and um one of my clients basically physically he doesn't feel pressure or he doesn't he only feels temperature on us outside of his hands doesn't feel pain doesn't feel you know a lot of things um and even under the surface like he only feels basically movement in space so he can feel if his foot goes down a hole he can feel as if it stops but he can't feel we I noticed I tried them out you know what what can he feel what can I feel and we feel a bit of pressure we go oh shit you know or and we move our foot he can feel like the drop in the pit of the stomach that there's a free fall and he can feel stopping and that's it he doesn't feel pain or pressure on the way down so he'll probably break an ankle you know um so he has to like you know stress and look for black holes in the environment yes like you know walk funny and then all these things come across to others as always you know flapper sands he's doing all these things but it's because his um sensory system is just much smaller than most people's and so they're just seeing all these like either annoying behaviors or weird behaviors or calling them ocds or you know whatever and it's because um you know eventually he could sort of like if you move his body doesn't go where he wants he'll suddenly get undressed as a way to relax but he doesn't obviously doesn't want to um and so um luckily if you sort of moved his body and enough he could then you know write some answers you know and eventually he's like was pulling all the stuff out of it and i don't think really this happens much anywhere people don't really dig at all into what's going on very deeply some of these people when they are able to later on suddenly just write a whole book on all this amazingly different you know stuff that was actually happening but most people just you know make the assumptions that they're not cogent enough whereas the kind of therapy i trained in realized for thousands of people that they just got the same you know levels of intellect from any as anyone that's just getting it out there and um so yeah just that notion i just really clicked today like you know when he you know when his hand stops because he doesn't have depth perception either so when his hand stops he knows he's hit a surface you know there's the physical thing there that's it stopping that's what he's got we grow up with all these other reminders so we're going to see ran completely different behavior and completely most people probably in his life like if anyone else doesn't unpack the stuff i've been unpacking or if he doesn't actually put it down because because it's really boring for him to read text he taught himself to read when he's five but black and white text is so boring he'll never look at it he'll just look at bright colors so so you know and then there's no and as long as he sees enough disney movies there's no motive or goes to the supermarket often enough there's no motivation for him to actually sit down and explain all this to everybody and he thinks everyone talks too much anyway because he's can't talk so um so at the end of the but then one time he bumped his head and he said ouch that hurt and his parents came back oh why did you say that and he wrote down i forgot to be scared so you know the whole thing could just be anxiety and um yeah the mainstream of you know this kind of thing i have no understanding of most of this and um yeah so it's just we just just what what notions pop up in one area one sort of location is is just um vastly different as to what's going on anywhere so nothing can be known it's just yeah amazing it's totally unknowable yeah well um thank you okay yeah we were actually discussing within uh i think yesterday a couple of days ago a situation where you know people have too much of them oh we just lost someone on zoom who's trying to get in sorry uh who had too much of a brain capacity you know when you look at the computer and you have someone super intelligent and incredibly bored interacting with other people and then start employing their skills of observation to scam them to just pick up okay sass up environment see how much money they have how can move three four moves ahead to actually just because the machine is bored or or learn to make people as soft as they can possibly be to then inflict pain and enjoy the sense of power that comes with it and again it's just a broken machine it's not even broken it's just a conditioned machine and if you see how your own machine is conditioned and then you see that every single one is unique it's absolutely unique and it's the same power fueling your your computer and your light and your washing machine and every other machine is the same energy but the outcome of it is different the vessel the hardware is different the software is different and you marvel and we have q you would you like to unmute hi there yeah can you hear me okay yeah yeah hey hey welcome thanks yeah lovely to be here um yeah i just have a few questions about it seems to be a sort of uh grieving process i guess i uh read sailor bob's work and uh john wheeler too uh it's been a sort of ongoing process for about um so for about two years i think i've had a lot of um uh glimpses and you know the sense of the me has has really fallen away um but i but i i still feel that um you know you have that you have that thing with uh when you're living in communities where people don't necessarily understand this and you can sort of get you can fall back into it quite well and um it really takes it seems to take an effort to put your attention um on the the the you're not using the i am and sort of going back into the character again and and it's uh yeah it's sort of been a bit of a drain i think on i'm on the physical body of trying to keep uh that sense of not being involved in in in the previous life and i just wondered if that was an experience that that everyone else sort of had like a sort of grieving period where i see people doing rituals you know like uh i guess like getting married and having children and and sort of nine to five work and not not sort of having that there's like a sense of a bit of annoyance where people can't necessarily see uh what what what what is seen here from this perspective and yeah there's there's there's like a bit of bit of anger i feel sometimes and i feel it's like futile and and a bit stupid and i didn't know if it was just something that everyone else experienced too or yeah it's an interesting and thank you for your honesty and and really the detailed sort of an expression like i could actually just really feel the emotions you're describing but can you see how those emotions are actually a subtle response to a comparison and a judgment so it isn't really they they're not coming from the from the pure appreciation of the miracle of existence they're coming from a subtle comparison the judgment of a content of a dream me versus other people where is the one essence where me the life is expressing as me this way as him this way as other people this way you know the same life is singing as a singer barking as a dog breeding children and getting married and getting divorced as other is the same one life there is no separation really but if i am separate and i never had children oh no maybe i'll be resentful or maybe they are stupid because they didn't see true and i've seen true so see when there is a differentiation there is always a subtle way of you know like judging comparing superiority inferiority sometimes there is a grief or they got it better sometimes there is anger oh i got it better they're stupid it's very very subtle because you are really sitting in the heart and you're feeling the feeling you don't necessarily bring it to the thinking and make it to a rigid judgment of uh of of separation but when you see where that feeling is coming from you see it doesn't really come from you see it doesn't really come from realization that it is just one life expressing us the 10 000 things in absolutely perfect manner and yes every unique every pattern is unique your pattern might not go the way with you know like whatever the career or uh being a rock star and having millions of followers or whatever but someone else did and they all happen within the consciousness that you are so in in in direct experience every pattern happens in you yeah oh yeah go on quick yeah thank you thanks kath yes sorry it's john is it no thank you um just think about what you were saying it sounds like i feel as if sometimes can experience that real desire for this and you want to be a non-duality expert or um yeah this may be i once i started seeing this i was very enthusiastic about it and thought change should happen very quickly uh you know i'm not this i'm not that i'm not the other thing just keep thinking about it and applying it and i it it becomes a bit of a trap you know it's not just judging other people but judging yourself and i would be thinking that if i'm really into this all my so-called defects of character should go and you know i i should have changed some sort of perfection but um it's i i don't think it's really like that it's like just relaxing into it and just be with the being and accepting the part you're playing in life accepting how you are this identity so-called identity how it appears accepting it for what it is instead of being in a rush to think this would be some sort of change in me or seeing it in others there should be some sort of change in them it's uh really those are all mind-based concepts that i was heavily into thinking that you know i need to change i need to get rid of this or that and if i was had this non-duality down that would happen but it it's not like that i think and people used to say to bob what should i do and he'd say do nothing i think that was really funny like there's two nothing um yeah if you are sort of it takes a certain sort of earnestness like seeing it or and um but you can't sort of race it like a bull of the gate in a way and just yeah i feel sometimes in uh in communities and non-duality speakings it's it's always geared up towards sort of love and it's not a criticism this at all um because it is i feel that i definitely feel it's not even what i would describe as love it's just all-encompassing when the you know the the mind goes quiet and everything is just cemented as a sort of one silhouette it's uh i can feel that it's it's it's just pure depth there's there's no like i'm feeling it now i guess with the with the connection things sort of drop away um but it it is just funny how the character comes back and um you know so sometimes with a vengeance it feels as well and and like uh yeah judgment can can be there and you can sort of become incredibly bored with with everyone's responses you can sort of see patterns in people i i don't know if that's something that came from the uh seeing sort of behind the mind but it came with a with a pattern recognition where i could sort of see what people are doing how they're just on cycles and uh yeah it's it's it's it's interesting some sometimes it like you said it just brings up more thoughts i guess and i guess that's where the trap is isn't it it's seeing the thoughts as a new version of self i can hear people fall into the concept of like a spiritual self when they drop the the normal self and then they they create a basically a new character and i guess it's uh when i was listening to a conversation between um john and sailor bob it was just the simplicity of it where it's just just drop drop everything doesn't and that's when i could really feel the difference where it's like okay so there isn't this perfect person that has to exist once the self is seen through the the me is seen through there is just yeah i guess i guess everything and all the conditioning and all the ugly stuff and you can't really flush it away as you want to yeah that's that's that's perfect yeah the movement here is to um maybe you don't feel them you're strong enough but the movement here is just to follow like fares get followed um like regularly depends usually there's a couple of days break um fares get followed and and um there's a million different ways that like um the hang-ups the blocks show up people call them shadows in australia
Yeah, they just, yeah, these things are noticed and they dissipate in various ways and then sometimes there's a casting around and that thing isn't there anymore and then life moves up a step, ramps up.
That's kind of how those kind of things disappear here. There's just a sort of process of actually doing the cleaning up taking place. It's just happening as, yeah, in the last couple of years it's been happening fairly intensely. It just seems, if a notion rises up to kind of explain it, it just seems that that way it'd be curious, it's just a curiosity to see what more freedom is like where the non-dual, the cleaning up, the waking up moments show up more often when there's less stuff triggering in, more cleaning up has happened. I don't know who proposed that first, but I heard in a Ken Wilbur podcast about the waking up, cleaning up, growing up.
Growing up is just kind of when you're triggered, when you're triggered in to by a lack of cleaning up, like when something triggers you in the environment, just what kind of grown up place you go to or not. So I knew someone who could have like, you know, days, weeks, months of just being in the moment. When they're triggered, they're like, you know, they're basically like a Nazi outlook, you know, you know, you know, you're fucking, you know, other race person, whatever. Whereas I'm like, damn, that was so annoying. Why did this patent do that again? You know, because, you know, no belief in your own stuff.
But there's a lot of triggering and no happening here. And just the post starts to waking up don't really don't seem to be the priority here. It's more the cleaning up so that there are more awake moments left to happen, you know? Yeah, I understand. Yeah. Thank you so much. Yeah, and I think we have, we have Tony and Cheryl. Yeah. Okay, so you guys go and then Dino. Okay. Oh, so I'm thinking, I've been sort of thinking about this thing of how people manifest love, you know, even when in their expressions, even when they're not very pleasant. How it can be a manifestation of love and it's an energetic thing, like there is aliveness in that.
And I'm thinking about your voices, your Darth Vader voices that you mentioned. And I'm thinking that that's sort of appealing to me in some ways, but, and I can see how that can cut through if you put a Mickey Mouse voice on the voices that come through your head. And how it would give it a different spin, but there's a impulse. There are impulses in life that don't seem Mickey Mouse-ish. They are full of love and they don't deserve to be named or labeled. It's hard for me to minimize that because they're just manifesting and they seem alive and they seem important. Like the desire, the desire you speak of to see, or they seem innocent and important.
That's all I was going to say. So I don't know, I don't know quite. It's just that kind of thing of the voices or the manifestations and the connection between the identifying with those or not. But it is hard to put down an identity with something that does actually feel quite, in a way, quite pure. Yeah, and expansive. And it feels here. You don't even have to put words on it. Isn't it like, you know, that wave of love? If you don't even label it, that, oh, this is a longing. It means that I'm incomplete. It means I want something that is not. No. Even just without any narrative, any interpretation, love in itself is like self-explanatory.
Like it's so obvious. Aha. That's why the whole dream, oof, just swoop you off your feet, takes the identity away. It just drowns you and melts you. Those magic moments, they don't need to be caged in explanations, grasped by the mind, defined by sense of luck. But they also, in a way, I suppose they, it's harder to put down maybe the identifying that can come along with them that might be quite subtle. You know, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the impulse of the desire, it can be very subtly attached to the me. And I can't give it a Mickey Mouse voice because it's, it feels like dishonoring something.
Yeah, no. But maybe. See, you can't give anyone a Mickey Mouse voice. If there is inspiration, it will flop by itself. See, like there is a subtle differentiation. Oh, this is higher, or this is more noble, or this is better. So I won't be controlling this. And this is lower. So I will be controlling that. Can you see suddenly there is an eye who has the power to distinguish? This is morally superior. This is morally inferior. None of it is you doing. You can find yourself in that humble surrender in which, oh, wow, this love expanding my chest. I don't want to change it. I surrender to it.
And this judgment. Oh, I do want to change it. I'll put my self judgment, self hatred into Mickey Mouse. That you that wants to surrender and that you who wants to control is just another Mickey Mouse. There's no one there. It's just the wave of that overwhelming love. And then there is a wave of overwhelming weather of a little bit of a raining, you know, judgment going. But in, in neither of those, there is anyone there. Can you see the subtlety in which, oh, yeah, this, I don't want to defile it, because it is so profound. You can't, there is no you. It's beautiful. See, this is another layer of love and another layer of appreciation of that profound, beautiful, overwhelming oneness or cosmic union or even longing and appreciation.
But that appreciation, naturally, it feels like expansion in love. But when it is translated by the mind, it says, I don't want to, I don't want to touch it, change it, contrive it, defile it, as if I even could, as if I was even there to do it. But when you get to the rawness and authenticity of the feeling prior to putting any words on it, not only you still don't want to do it, you can't do it, you don't even, you're not even preoccupied with doing it, because this is what we learned early in life as children. When something gets too big, when something gets too big, we name the monster, we give it a label, so it doesn't scare us much.
We run away from love much faster than from any other emotion. We quickly label it, quickly, quickly. So now I feel like, okay, I know what it is, I can control it. Yeah, but I don't want to because it's beautiful. Yes, but I've already labeled it because it's so overwhelming. I'm going to lose myself. I'm going to die into it. Well, so what? Just die into it. Dying in love. Wow. Bob used to laugh about it for all nine years. He says, yes, at this age, you know, it's kind of risky. I'm happy to die this way. He didn't. Yeah, but really, the thing is, the sense of even not wanting to somehow contain it is already bringing it to the language.
See, the urge to express it is the urge to diminish feeling it. Because if you feel it, feel it without expressing it. It's like, imagine feeling the volcano of anger without yelling and screaming and throwing and breaking the plates or whatever. You know, there are people who get that level of dysregulation. And they feel, if I don't express it, I'm just going to explode. Same with love. Sometimes it gets so incredibly powerful that you have to die. And that's it. Near death experiences are all about that. But it can't be expressed because the mind is already switched off. But as long as the mind is functioning, it tries to put it in words, limit it.
Limit that incredibly overwhelming sense of interconnectedness and cosmic union with the whole universe, the bliss of being. Limit it by caging it with words. Yes, but you know, I have to protect it. It doesn't need protecting. It just needs experiencing. But I'm really, really glad to see that you actually, you know, it's only a matter of time when it just... Take you the depths that, you know, it's somewhat, it feels also, you know, that... Like I'm training the machine to allow more and more voltage of that unconditional love. It feels like, no, no, no, I have to, I have to speed it out because it's going to just burn the whole fuses.
So, okay, I allow it a little bit and then a little bit more and a little bit more. Well, trust me, let it blow the fuses. You're not going to die. The mind is going to burn, but body is going to survive it. Thank you. Thank you. Dino, you want to read the comment? Well, it's time, but so I'll just... Emmanuel said earlier, morning light and blue skies and equanimous mind to you all. And Gioti said, how is it that you have more clarity about what this is than I do? There's no uncertainty here about that. I am, I am, but that's it. That's it?
Yeah. I don't know anything more than that. Just this. The rest is just vocabulary going, expression. It's just some expression. Anthony says, let me just... What helped me was some stuff that John Wheeler brought up about the non-duality circus. Most speakers can't bring you to the full stop. I was still believing so many non-dual concepts spread around by people I looked up to. Nothing wrong with it, but being able to drop all concepts is vital. And thanks. And Emmanuel says, more giggling, more crying, fewer words. What is the feeling? I think that was in response to things earlier. And Anthony says, the Kiryu, to Kiryu, exhaustion is absolutely natural.
When there's subtly a feeling, subtly a feeling of a, of a doing to be present. There's really no one that can do this. I find the effort falls away and it unfolds. Exhaustion is the me hanging on not to last. Yeah. And look, we've started about five minutes. Give us a summary. Come on. No, that's all right. Please. I've got plenty to say. Nothing now. I've got plenty to say all the time. Like, I don't know what to, what to say really at all. But like, it's just that one essence. Like, you know, you, the last few words that Cheryl was sharing about this, this innocence.
Like the real innocence is the innocence in, in the whole shebang. There's an innocence to everyone and everything and every action, every word, every thought, every, every bit of the appearance isn't been done by anyone. And it's an appearance of nothing appearing as something. So the actual innocence itself is, and the beauty and, and is in the whole show. And, and in, you know, there is no separation between the me and the you and, and this machine and that machine. And they're all machines of that one essence expressing. They're all got the same power source expressing themselves through an infinite array of conditions and biochemistry and cosmic energies and, and whatever you want to call it.
And, and genetics and, and, and more than that. So the whole universe is, is creating each expression. And, and each expression is a unique expression of that innocence expressing itself beautifully. So therefore there is no one getting something and no one not getting, there's no superior or inferior or higher or lower. It's all that one essence. And the only thing dividing and stopping and, and seemingly making it seem is, is, is that it's not that way is, is the thought. A believed in thought, not a thought because a thought itself is absolutely innate. It, it, it, it has no, no power unless it's sort of believed to be the truth.
So, so thoughts and, and like having a still mind or quiet mind, all thoughts drop. Oh, what a beautiful place. And then they resume all this is bad. No, no, the resumption of thoughts or the continuing of thoughts or endless stream of thoughts are all. Are all that, that same one essence expressing as thoughts. And, and when they're not believed in, because how could you be limited to a thought? No matter how profound or brilliant or, or real or heartfelt a thought or a feeling is, is, is that one true? Which means that the other ones are false or, or this one more real or this one more correct than that one?
No, the innocence is the whole expression. All thoughts, all feelings, every emotion, every, every aspect of this whole human spectrum and, and more. That is inconceivable and imperceivable is, is part of this is, is that whole expression is the thatness is the I amness, not the I am, but the I am as the whole shebang expressing as that. And, you know, interesting, the whole meeting was an expression of that, expressed through these words, through these notions, through these seemingly sharing and, and questions and answers. And yeah, so relax, there's nothing that anyone needs to do. And Curious says, thanks for the reply. I, I can't see the chat, but I really appreciate the words.
It's so true to me, still clinging on. Thank you. Hmm. Yeah. Thank you everyone. Thank you everyone who was with us here in the room and in the Zoom and on Facebook and for comments and contributions and, and tips. And that's that. Lots of love. Remember that you are. And even if you don't remember, you still are. There's no way out. Bye bye.